Southport report lays bare the failures of authorities - and the attacker's parents

@Thekidsarefightingagain

Ah no sorry, I see you are not 100%

Didnt realise it was you I was having the convo with earlier!

I've had it too but it was very understandably mistaken for stress - which did kind of cause it - until full on hallucinations. So I very much do get it. It's really not how I was expecting it to be or what friends and family thought it would be too. It gave me so much respect for people with schizophrenia. You become an amazing actor! Can never see a self service till in the same light and had no idea until then how many coincidences there are!

Was shocked to find out how common it is. Had no idea as people don't talk about it.

Very important to contact Early Intervention In Psychosis Team who actually do have resources!

Thank you 😊 but no need to be sorry. I wouldn’t be where I am today without that happening. So weirdly I wouldn’t change it.

Also in a strange way a privilege to go to the edge of the human mind and come back. Most people are not so lucky.

If you ever think even 50% that’s the issue with your child then please act fast. Dont let it go! Do not accept it! Being on antipsychotics for a short period will not mess you up. Failing to act will 100% fuck someone up for life.

I forgot to reply to this - sorry you went through all of that. Yes I agree - far too conceptual for people to understand and even psychiatrists mistake it for something else eg anxiety, stress esp in the lead up period. I think unless you're alert to symptoms it's very tricky and even then people say it's just stress/ASD/whatever. And as parents if you're told it's all part of ASD then you accept that when you really need EIT.

I am 100% convinced. And no I am not a psychiatrist either. But as someone who has literally had it I think I have insight to recognise it that most people don’t.

I also don’t think psychiatrists really know as much about psychosis as they think they do. Unless you have have had it then it’s just so conceptual. And the people they are talking to have alterior motives at play too. To keep their liberty, not or get medication, etc etc. When I was well I remember saying to my psychiatrist I have no idea how you manage this because how can you decipher who’s telling the truth and when.

But they can recognise signs of FEP; particularly the negative symptoms and his actions. And he ticked all those boxes imo.

I wish there was a national campaign for FEP. Like the stroke awareness campaigns. I often see posts on here from people about family members and even in second hand text account it’s clearly psychosis. Often many pages long and not a single person has said ‘that’s psychosis’.

People really have very little awareness.

I think they withdrew his place. In some places home tutoring would be offered to work towards reintegration (home to base to school). But yes that would depend on the level of risk - although I have known home tutoring for CYP expelled from PRUs.

And its also not a given that tuition is going to be offered in any case, I cant remember why he wasnt attending the PRU, was this because they withdrew his place and so he didnt have a school place? Or was it just through non attendance/school refusal? In which case tutoring is not likely to be offered.

Yes some LAs do (or did) have well established set ups and systems going back over 20 years aimed towards reintegration but I'm guessing that they are swamped nowadays like everywhere else. I think a lot of LAs were caught by surprise.

Well its really down to the company that provide the tutors whether they provide it at home or not, these are private companies, tendered by the LA (most LAs are a tendering/commissioned LA) so a tender goes out, someone bids for the job, and thats the company used. Then you have to rely on availability, timings and whether that tutor wants to work within the home or an office or the library etc etc

I suppose some LA might have their own tutors but I would guess not many these days given everything has been outsourced all over the place.

And at the end of the day they dont have to accept the job.

Aaah again that makes sense - it must depend on the LA then whether it can be provided at home or not. So again that's interesting. And yes there's a very long wait.

Not many people want to work with this profile! Oh yes to that.

I love having everyone's perspective, it's just so interesting!

Even if direct tuition is agreed (its normally online), the tutors are tendered for (in most LAs, so dont have to accept the job) and will usually meet the young person at a library or other public place. I dont have any kids, who are receiving direct tutoring where it happens in placement or at home.
And quite frankly, we have had tutors refuse to work directly with young people with this sort of profile and kids are left waiting months and months for education because no one will work with them. Apart from police and social care no one 'has' to work with a young person, they can say they're not engaging or the risks are too high and say they cant work with them.

I know exactly what you're saying though! That was my thought too but I'm no psychiatrist.

Yes I said upthread, or another thread, who knows now, you cannot separate out his ASD from these behaviours, no matter how much people want to believe 'this wasnt his autism'

It was, his view of the world, himself, his relationship abilities, his victim status, his perceiption of bullying and the 'solution' to that is born out of an extreme reaction, rigidity, lack of empathy, lack of ownership and many other things. He may, may have had some MH issues as well but hasnt been diagnosed with that as far as I remember

There is no way he would have been sectioned, I know people want to believe this was the missing gap, it wasnt, it just would not have happened on the basis of that.

My query around home ed is that others would've been in the house so if it wasn't provided it was a missed opportunity. I don't know if it was though.

Aah yes the endless cycle of MASH referrals.

@Theeyeballsinthesky The issue is not that the parents had to do everything. They are not the professional services here that failed. They are though one part of the jigsaw puzzle of acute failure. Shabana Mahmood listed the professional agencies. He was not attending his PRU. Home education was the least of the problems here. It’s not acting when crimes are committed or doing what’s needed to protect society. I’ve attached the list.

Yes I said upthread, or another thread, who knows now, you cannot separate out his ASD from these behaviours, no matter how much people want to believe 'this wasnt his autism'

It was, his view of the world, himself, his relationship abilities, his victim status, his perceiption of bullying and the 'solution' to that is born out of an extreme reaction, rigidity, lack of empathy, lack of ownership and many other things. He may, may have had some MH issues as well but hasnt been diagnosed with that as far as I remember

There is no way he would have been sectioned, I know people want to believe this was the missing gap, it wasnt, it just would not have happened on the basis of that.

I don’t think it is different. I see very clearly the same thing.

Not all psychosis’s are dramatic and have you hearing voices and seeing spaceships. This whole thing started with him believing he was being bullied when it wasn’t true. Then becoming obsessed and fixated with researching and going down rabbit holes. Stopped sleeping, bathing and eating.

Thats basically exactly what happened to me. And that was diagnosed as a first episode psychosis.

I don’t think it is different. I see very clearly the same thing.

Not all psychosis’s are dramatic and have you hearing voices and seeing spaceships. This whole thing started with him believing he was being bullied when it wasn’t true. Then becoming obsessed and fixated with researching and going down rabbit holes. Stopped sleeping, bathing and eating.

Thats basically exactly what happened to me. And that was diagnosed as a first episode psychosis.

Psychosis is different as it's a very clear cut psychiatric emergency so they would admit. Tbh I suspect that some of the time it's due to not enough CAMHS beds but could be really wrong about this. Read the book on this one! The kids just get batted back to families.

My questions at this stage are:

1. What caused AR's sudden decline? If he had had support for his ASD and if that had been diagnosed earlier and given support eg at school would he have declined?

2. Were there carers for his brother?

3. Was home tuition provided?

4. Child to mother violence is sadly pretty much seen as an acceptable risk. I suspect that because it was against his father it was viewed as even more acceptable. We've discussed the difficulties of restraint and how this is generally frowned upon, the strength of a dysregulated child

5. Why were they not given support to implement boundaries? Why is the reason that they didn't want to escalate a volatile situation and not get hurt and not impact on the stress to brother not viewed as understandable? Was there any safety planning?

6. Why was the impact of trauma not taken into account with dealings with services? Parents had been through a lot of trauma plus coping with the impact of elder son's disability plus coping with sudden decline of AR plus dealing with services which can be traumatic by itself. And a part time job as someone mentioned earlier. It doesn't appear as if their views were potentially as taken into account as they could have been but that could be my over extrapolating.

7. It looks like they were both working night shifts - I think I've got that right. Was this to be around in the day for AR? Was the sheer exhaustion of working nights taken into account in decision making?

The video that OP posted earlier is by far the most balanced reporting that I've seen.