Truly single-sex bra fittings for DD13

I expect - indeed, hope - that @dizzydizzydizzy does not have a daughter.

Curtains, such an effective protector of women and girls from predatory males.

Not.

Children of Transitioners have some interesting stories of fathers involving their daughters in their AGP fetishes:

https://childrenoftransitioners.org/autogynephilia/

https://childrenoftransitioners.org/stop-using-us-as-props/

I’m not sure that someone who has threatened to sexually assault women with splintery rolling pins is the best person to comment on women’s safety.

I see the bat signal has gone out...

Men again, butting in where they are not wanted, whether it’s a lingerie changing room or a Mumsnet thread. Me, me, me, all day, every day.

Mumsnet, the fascinating place where at the same time you will learn that anyone can wear any clothes they want, feminism progress and that, but a trans woman, or even cis man, shopping for lingerie (for themselves or someone else) is someone to be chased off with pitchforks and biggest threat to society which should drive you away from very basic experience of a bra fitting.

OP: as someone who uses the service at M&S, and so does my daughter, you two will enter into a stall (or daughter alone while you wait outside), and exit with shopping in hand after, heading to the till to pay if you decide to buy any.

Anything in between will be handed by the attendant, and there should also be internal curtain in the bigger stalls so when she changes she won't have to do that even in front of you, while you both remain in the stall.

Don't traumatize the kid with transphobia, it's not healthy for you, it won't be any healthier for her.

M&S aren't great at bra-fitting anyway, this is quite well-known.
Once you know your size they are fine to buy from, but I wouldn't be going there to get a fitting.

I do think that the DIY instructions now are so accessible that you could easily talk your daughter through it. You could even turn order a number of "sister sizes" and she could try on at home.

As a teenager I would have been just as mortified to have a middle aged woman in a department store measuring my boobs as anyone else. I just cltried sizes on until I found one that fit at that age, which is much easier now with internet shopping. It sounds like your daughter is far more shy and self-conscious than I was, so I can't see any shop being a preferable experience for her.

All the people coming up with creative solutions and minimising the risk of OP and her daughter having a bad experience are missing the point. It was part of the social contract not that long ago that women would naturally be afforded privacy away from the presence of men - any men loitering near the lingerie changing rooms would be dealt with robustly by the women in charge of them. It was a safe female space. Since we’ve had all the virtue signalling towards trans identifying men from the retailers, along with men like Sophie Molly making a point of showing off about the visits to the bra department, it’s not guaranteed to be a female space any more. Oh and I nearly forgot about the guys who have posted on social media about wanking into women’s underwear and putting it back on the sales floor 🤮

Ok. So lets see you take your 13 year old daughter to a bra fitting, knowing full well there's a man in the next cubicle. You have no way of knowing if he's having a nice wank listening to your daughter answer "oh, it's a bit tight" or "I like the pink one best" or "I need one for school and one for gymnastics" or "how do I adjust it?" Or whatever.

Even just the idea there's a small girl half naked will be enough for some men....

But, I'm sure you'd definitely be cool about it all ... And would be telling your daughter to "be tolerant to that man"

Agreed. What kind of man is now rubbing his hands in glee because he's welcome to spend as long as he likes in a cubicle next to young girl getting her first bra fitted.

I mean, for fuck's sake. It's bleeding, bloody, blocking obvious what kind of man wants to go into a woman's changing room!

So many typos. The government.

Shocking...a man wants to be able to see women's breasts...

The conversation is not the same as for any clothing, but perhaps you don't know that. Fitters don't go into a changing room to help a young girl on with a jumper. There is likely to be embarrassment because of what they are trying on, and the fact that is has never been needed or worn before.

This is not a total non-issue. Neither is the man in the next cubicle, which you have ignored.

Agreed.

Most men are perfectly normal and not perverted and will wait outside the area, staring at his phone in boredom whilst their wife or whatever tries on.

A dad wouldn't generally take their daughter, and even then would "hand her over" at the threshold... But now has to check there isn't actually a man who pretends to be woman measuring her.

These are the people Bridget Phillipson is listening to.

As men are welcomed into women's changing rooms in almost all shops, including specifically lingerie shops and changing rooms, what sort of man do posters imagine will be availing themselves of this?

it really feels to me as though this ideaology has done a massive number on women, when they consider a rational reaction to be, um, just take a big a cardigan, or what are the chances?, or do it yourself, or at home, or don't do it at all!

It's bloody outrageous.

None of those is an answer.

The answer is female only changing rooms.

Slightly different subject, but went to a major shopping centre today. Teenage DD is very into ‘Berksha’ so took her there. She wanted to try on a load of things. ‘All Gender’ fitting rooms - flimsy curtain and a bloke trying on clothes next to her. Thankfully I was there and waited outside the curtain, watching like a hawk. Who on earth thinks this is a good idea? 😡

One of the TRA chants at the London protest yesterday was about demanding the right to work in bra shops.

Lingerie fitting is specific to women so should be single sex. Unlike some women, I would be OK trying on clothes in a cubicle with a locking door in a supervised, unisex space.

There is clarity, the judgement was very clear. The governance is wilfully choosing to ignore the judgement.

But you just said:

"I don't get why a man being in an adjacent fitting room would be a big deal."

It clearly is a big deal for many of us.