Truly single-sex bra fittings for DD13

I took my teenage daughter for a fitting here and it was fine. She's not large. I've had a fitting recently too and I'm also not large (as in large breasts).

I do get where you're coming from, OP, but weigh up the potential harms here.

If you really want a professional bra fitting for your daughter now, then clearly you perceived that there will be some harm if she doesn't get one.

There will obviously be harm in her being fitted in a place where men are present (or even doing the fitting).

But what are the actual chances of this scenario occurring? I'm as bothered by men pretending to be women as the next person, but it's a bit like being bothered by people who want to abduct kids. They don't lurk round every corner, and the chances of coming across the harm is extremely small indeed.

I've never seen a man in the changing rooms by the lingerie in my local M&S.

Measure your dd, order a selection of bras. Gauge what's the right shape, return and order different sizes is if necessary. It can all be done in the comfort and privacy of home.

But for posters to imply it's hysterical to want to have privacy and dignity completely away from men for a teenage girl is frankly astonishing.

it's bloody depressing. The amount of things people are suggesting women and girls do in order to accept the loss of all their spaces is extraordinary.

That's right. Women need to exclude themselves from their own spaces, because men want to be in there.

FFS women and girls shouldn't have to tie themselves in knots because they want an actual woman to do a bra fitting. If men want to be pretendy women, fine, do it at home or on the streets (but not women's toilets)and stay out of our spaces.

What does your dd think?

This.

And, as a surprise to no one, the only people who rave about genital inspections are the very men who are clamouring to get into women's spaces who like to imagine it happening.

Of course it is political - you are making a point about the need to stop trans people working in women only spaces - it is a perfectly valid point of view, but you do not want to use your child to make this point.

I find it quite unimaginable that a 13 year old girl would be actively asking to have a bra fitting. She is just at a very vulnerable age of developing sexuality and most would just want to get the bra in the least embarrassing way possible.

As others have suggested - measure her, buy a few bras, try them on in the privacy of her home and send back the ones that do not fit. Job done, no embarrassment, sensitively handled.

As I said upthread I have 3 DDs and my main aim in helping them make this transition was to be sensitive to their feelings and make it as easy as possible for them. They also had lots of friends and getting the first bra was a hot topic - they supported each other.

Why not offer her the possibility of getting a few bras to try on at home? This would be a kindness.

Your political point about women-only spaces can wait - your child's emotional needs come first.

This isn't the vehicle for trying to instill skills in DD that even when something is a bit embarrassing or awkward, you can still do it. There will be plenty of other opportunities for her to get a grip on this concept - but this is not it. Her burgeoning sexuality is a matter for sensitive handling and not an opportunity to teach her to face embarrassment.

Above all you need to show kindness to your child.

The point was not made about the woman who suffered a heinous crime. The point was made to illustrate the ludicrousness of the op's stress about an M&S changing room. There are far more.things mothers need to worry about than whether a bra fitter is potentially trans, in which case one simply walks away if uncomfortable.

But keeping men out of women's changing rooms is not just about the risk of rape or SA. I refer you to my earlier comment about the teeny cameras.

I think you are overthinking things, who cares if women, men, trans women or trans men are around outside a closed door. As long as they can't see your daughter naked does it matter.

What's on it for the women and girls? Give me one single advantage for them?

I'd feel uncomfortable if there were strange men outside of a cubicle in which I was undressed, and I can certainly imagine a young girl might feel that even more.

Let's agree to keep men out of spaces where women are getting undressed regardless of how they identify. If for not women's comfort and dignity then for their safety. Whilst chances of assault are low, voyeurism is on the rise and teeny cameras readily accessible. Keep men out - and that includes male employees including those who identify as trans. If stores badge fitting rooms as male/female (and they should) then the law protects these spaces as single sex. It is a nonsense to talk about genital inspections. For one, most trans identifying men do not pass. And secondly what we demand is a return to the social contract which deemed that men willingly respect female spaces. Nowadays this must include transwomen. We have these ridiculous arguments because some men and their supporters (including unfortunately many women) but their desires before women's needs.

OP, you ask someone above if they think it's political that a teenage girl can't get access to a single sex space.

It is exactly that now.

This is not your doing, but the doing of men in dresses. You're probably aware of the case of the Brighton school being taken to court for allowing boys into girls' changing rooms. Political. Same thing in concept as men in lingerie changing rooms.

You and your daughter feel as you do and want to do what you are planning. Fair enough. Ignore all those on here who say 'why? At her size???' It's not up to them. It's not what you want to know. Also ignore those women who think women sitting around men's changing rooms awaiting their husband to appear in his new trousers is comparable. Those women clearly have no idea of what the drivers are for men being around girls & women in such circumstances.

I hope you find what you need.

I think you are overthinking things, who cares if women, men, trans women or trans men are around outside a closed door. As long as they can't see your daughter naked does it matter.

Go to rigby and peller for a bra fitting. She'll be fitted very well by a woman and you can reflect on how much you care about pushing your prejudices onto your daughter as you hand over the equivalent of a weekly shop for a single bra that won't last more than. 6 months as she's still growing.

When I first came across your posts I thought perhaps you might be uninformed, or finding it difficult to understand people's points or to express yourself clearly. But now it appears you are deliberately ignoring arguments, including the point of my post here.

If you need more information or background, then I suggest one of the Break it down for me threads, eg:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445899-break-it-down-for-me-2-general-break-it-down-archive-thread?page=1

If however you are deliberately ignoring the arguments then I'm not sure there is any point further engaging with you. In this case, it doesn't matter why or how a man presents, it matters that he is a man. And any man/male should never be in a women's single-sex space.

We know you think it is "ridiculous". What do you hope to achieve by saying it over and over again?

Nobody is denying that anyone "exists", what is being rejected is their self definition (as defined by the radical wider ideology which gave birth to that terminolgy).

I did too. For Ann summers. People don’t want to listen to advise given any way. I would try and explain you might be a different size in a balconette to a plunger and t-shirt bra. People do lack common sense. I could honestly move to an island by myself and be happy 😂

A girl out with her mum and in a locked cubicle is highly unlikely to experience a sexual assault. It really is a total non issue.

What a disgusting point-scoring comment to make about that poor woman who was raped @RosesAndHellebores. You should be ashamed. Despicable.

You would surprised. I used to work as a bra fitter and honestly women have no idea, for example, to make sure wire isn’t sitting on breast tissue.

Women often wore bands the were too loose and compensated by having their straps far too tight.

Another common issue is not taking into account that different materials and styles of bras have different fits and mean you may not be the same size in every bra.

Nothing to be ashamed about though like you are making out. Christ.