Late night surprise about reputation of FWR

It seems to be here. Let’s see what a formal definition of debate suggests: “to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments” (Merriam-Webster). I don’t really see a good deal of that.

The discussion might also be more meaningful if cliches like this weren’t thrown in all the time, along with odd childish tone.

I am quite prepared to say posting late at night might mean that I wasn't clear, but I am amazed that so many assumed it was yet another thread started to then say things that I think in the last 2 there are three major threads about.

Hard to belief but there is life outside and endless repititions about sex and gender.

So actual fact.

1 I saw a thread on site stuff about problems in discussing conflict in the Middle East because of differences of opinion about Zionism and anti semitism.

2 I was completely surprised to see someone use a thread that is about something really serious to hijack it to comment on FWR. (Sorry for those who dont know what that measns. Blame MN HQ and ask them to revert to its original name.)

3 Why would they do that. They could have had their own thread on site stuff if they genuinely thought the could compare language on FWR with threads on the ongoing issues in the Middle East.

4 As someone said I have been on this forum for a while and thought I would just let everyone know.

I think only 2 or maybe 3 realised that.

Not saying I would have wanted it but why didn't this lead to a discussion about whether it is possible to say that discussion on the ME has the same characteristics as discussing sex based rights.

Sometime it might be worth standing back and remembering this isn't a single issue forum.

It is a feminist forum to discuss sex and gender because not that many years ago you could get kicked off for daring to suggest sex and gender were not the same thing.

So as said in recent post when in MN had to accept that there were such things as gender critical feminists, they should have a forum where they could discuss the implications of genderists (TRAs) and not faint and send for the smelling salts.

So for those who thought is was just too frightful to be so unkind could have there very own we want to be kind space to "chat".

But that also means we dont have to have the same discussions over and over again.

The point was, or used to be, having that shared outlook of sex based rights what actions, or events, or laws or ... whatever could women as a group online discuss about how to bring about change.

Still find it amazing that anyone from whatever part of MN would think it appropriate or relevent to raise FWR discussion as though the same as discussions about the ME.

Oh dear, naughty me, there I am being provocative again.

Sigh.

One reason why the TWR threads can be so 'robust' is that they are full of women who have seen the same half-truths and dodgy conceptual leaps put forward as clinching arguments for the past decade +, have had more than enough of experience of being patronised, and are frustrated at having to go over the same ground over and over again.

We've seen women kicked off MN for wrongthink, we've subscribed to crowd-funders for women who have lost their jobs or been discriminated against for wrongthink. We've seen men take women's medals while denying that their male biology gives them extra strength, speed or power. We warned anyone who would listen about the risks posed by trans ideology to women in prisons, and to children. We got called extreme for pointing out that if you open a door in the wall of safeguarding, the perverts will find it and use it to their own advantage.

Some of us know young people who have been sucked into a questionable cult line of thinking and who have irreparably changed their bodies. We're sick of the lying catchphrases like 'we just want to pee', because we can cite the actual stats showing what % of trans women in prison are sex offenders.

We've been called terfs, bigots and Nazis. We've had men refuse to stop calling us 'cis' when told we find it insulting. We've seen the violence and aggression of the other side. We bitterly resent the amount of time, money and energy that we've had to spend on this fight, to just hold onto the rights we already had, just to be allowed to keep the word 'woman' - time, money and energy which could have been put to much better use.

So, no surprise that we're a bit fucked off and impatient, and can get a bit arsey with faux-naive posters who want to know why everyone FWR 'hates trans people' (but can never produce a quote), or who start lecturing the silly mummies about our antediluvian views.

<breathes>
Honest to God, I need a t-shirt with 'SO SICK OF THIS SHIT' emblazoned across the front.

The discussion might also be more meaningful if cliches like this weren’t thrown in all the time, along with odd childish tone.

FWR has a reputation because people tell lies about us and eventually people believe the lies. Keep slinging mud until some sticks is a very old tactic.

Well if the TRA could come up with coherent arguments instead of just. Youre all bug meanies saying no to the poor liddle Menz who just want to peeee then maybe the discussion might be meaningful.

It seems to be here. Let’s see what a formal definition of debate suggests: “to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments” (Merriam-Webster). I don’t really see a good deal of that.

I haven’t read the thread you mention so not commenting on that, but I think in general there’s a fair comparison between the misuse of both the terms transphobia and antisemitism. In both cases there are ‘real’ examples of this happening, and there is also a lot of misuse of each term, as an attempt to stop discussion, avoid scrutiny, and smear.

I am quite prepared to say posting late at night might mean that I wasn't clear, but I am amazed that so many assumed it was yet another thread started to then say things that I think in the last 2 there are three major threads about.

Hard to belief but there is life outside and endless repititions about sex and gender.

So actual fact.

1 I saw a thread on site stuff about problems in discussing conflict in the Middle East because of differences of opinion about Zionism and anti semitism.

2 I was completely surprised to see someone use a thread that is about something really serious to hijack it to comment on FWR. (Sorry for those who dont know what that measns. Blame MN HQ and ask them to revert to its original name.)

3 Why would they do that. They could have had their own thread on site stuff if they genuinely thought the could compare language on FWR with threads on the ongoing issues in the Middle East.

4 As someone said I have been on this forum for a while and thought I would just let everyone know.

I think only 2 or maybe 3 realised that.

Not saying I would have wanted it but why didn't this lead to a discussion about whether it is possible to say that discussion on the ME has the same characteristics as discussing sex based rights.

Sometime it might be worth standing back and remembering this isn't a single issue forum.

It is a feminist forum to discuss sex and gender because not that many years ago you could get kicked off for daring to suggest sex and gender were not the same thing.

So as said in recent post when in MN had to accept that there were such things as gender critical feminists, they should have a forum where they could discuss the implications of genderists (TRAs) and not faint and send for the smelling salts.

So for those who thought is was just too frightful to be so unkind could have there very own we want to be kind space to "chat".

But that also means we dont have to have the same discussions over and over again.

The point was, or used to be, having that shared outlook of sex based rights what actions, or events, or laws or ... whatever could women as a group online discuss about how to bring about change.

Still find it amazing that anyone from whatever part of MN would think it appropriate or relevent to raise FWR discussion as though the same as discussions about the ME.

Oh dear, naughty me, there I am being provocative again.

Sigh.

FWR has a reputation because people tell lies about us and eventually people believe the lies. Keep slinging mud until some sticks is a very old tactic.

Do you actually, really think that "debate" means "two sets of people slinging hate at each other"?

Why do you think the debate goes on constantly then?

There’s a massive difference between the issues in the Middle East and FWR.

Specifically that being a woman is an undeniable scientific fact. Trans is an ideology with no scientific basis.

The varying points of view relating to the Middle East are complicated by history and religion; so many different things are interpreted via different lenses. It’s clear that there are victims and major crimes on all sides.

If you believe that humans can change sex or have a good reason as to why gender shouldn’t be seen as regressive stereotypes then please let us have your arguments.

If the issue is the Bananarama defence then a lot of us will push back on our tone being policed.

When you're as angry as I am about this BS (see my long post upthread) having my tone policed is just one more fucking thing.

One reason why the TWR threads can be so 'robust' is that they are full of women who have seen the same half-truths and dodgy conceptual leaps put forward as clinching arguments for the past decade +, have had more than enough of experience of being patronised, and are frustrated at having to go over the same ground over and over again.

We've seen women kicked off MN for wrongthink, we've subscribed to crowd-funders for women who have lost their jobs or been discriminated against for wrongthink. We've seen men take women's medals while denying that their male biology gives them extra strength, speed or power. We warned anyone who would listen about the risks posed by trans ideology to women in prisons, and to children. We got called extreme for pointing out that if you open a door in the wall of safeguarding, the perverts will find it and use it to their own advantage.

Some of us know young people who have been sucked into a questionable cult line of thinking and who have irreparably changed their bodies. We're sick of the lying catchphrases like 'we just want to pee', because we can cite the actual stats showing what % of trans women in prison are sex offenders.

We've been called terfs, bigots and Nazis. We've had men refuse to stop calling us 'cis' when told we find it insulting. We've seen the violence and aggression of the other side. We bitterly resent the amount of time, money and energy that we've had to spend on this fight, to just hold onto the rights we already had, just to be allowed to keep the word 'woman' - time, money and energy which could have been put to much better use.

So, no surprise that we're a bit fucked off and impatient, and can get a bit arsey with faux-naive posters who want to know why everyone FWR 'hates trans people' (but can never produce a quote), or who start lecturing the silly mummies about our antediluvian views.

<breathes>
Honest to God, I need a t-shirt with 'SO SICK OF THIS SHIT' emblazoned across the front.