Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

I must be boring, old-fashioned, and literal-minded. I certainly can't be doing with Judith Butler. But for me, gender means sex (except for coitus and grammar) and is primarily useful for compound noun formations:

Culturally imposed gender norms.

Acquired gender.

Gender recognition.

And, of course, gender identity, meaning the sex a transgender person wishes they were, but aren't.

I do have a theory about how GI might manifest, in terms of interactions with others. The boy feels towards the other boys in an opposite sex (fear/curiosity) way and towards the girls in a same-sex (rivalry/camaraderie) way. So he adopts current local cultural sex norms to fool us into treating him as a girl.

He's still a boy, though.

It’s just nature vs nurture wrapped up in different language to me

Sure. I expect 'identity' is roughly equivalent to 'ego'. Both terms introduced as descriptors that have gained a lot of weight and baggage and create a lot of misunderstandings. People tend to want to ascribe value judgements to these ideas that can extend to the thing being described. See people thinking 'ego' is a bad thing, for example.

This is a really helpful way of looking at it! Much clearer to people like me as well who aren't always sure of the unspoken meaning behind "I am a" sort of constructions. (E.g. I am a liberal person, I am a foodie)

Yes, our identities shift and change with time, in response to circumstances and life's experiences. The only fixed aspects of oneself are the facts of our birth: which are our sex, our parents, our country or place of origin, our period in time.

Not everything is about feelings and what goes on in the mind of an individual. Material reality, and common consensus about that reality, is of more consequence when it comes to the organisation and ordering of a society.

If you replace all the "to be" conjugations with different verbs, what's left?

"I [gave birth to /adopted] and parent children". "I play chess".

If I lost a finger and had to stop trumpet playing, I'm not a different person.

As is often the case, meaningful discussion / debate is difficult without using shared terminology. I refer to personality and identity as different phenomenon.

Personality is (when well) refers to the relatively stable way you respond to the world and includes traits, temperament and social style. It is heavily shaped by genetics.

Identity is the story you tell yourself about who you are. Identity is constructed, more influenced by society and more changeable.

There are real and significant consequences to having a weak, unstable or incoherent identity - this is the basis upon which a range of mental health disorders progress.

So for gender dysphoria to be a real condition it follows that there must be some innate "gender identity".

Nah. Body dysmorphia manifesting as a rejection of your sexed body would cause a sincere desire for hormones and surgery.

Is now a good time to mention that most male transitioners keep their penises? Most are not sincerely body dysmorphic.

Until relatively recently, people who didn't outwardly observe the rituals of the State's religion du jour were persecuted. This provides a powerful motive to pretend to believe.

Yes but that’s still you learning the values and making a decision, which would inform your identity no?

On Butler: https://newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

Or we decide to what degree we want to conform, rebel/subvert/resist, or ignore.

Of course lots of things can be part of our “identity” or our personality, but that doesn’t mean they are innate, something we are born with. No one is a born Labour voter.

A long time since I read the 2nd sex, but I took Beauvoir to be saying we learn both our sex and the stereotypes expected of it as girls. The first is fact, the latter is variable.

'you are a girl and will become a woman and women cook and are kind therefore you must do/be these things"

I dont see performative gender contradicting that?

well I told you - no one can escape a sexist society, so everyone embeds these values subconsciously whether they want to or not, which informs identity.

also I am a nerd but jb is outside my discipline. I’d be interested to hear!

Simone de Beauvoir - one is not born a woman, one becomes one

Not hugely relevant, but I think that soundbite is commonly misunderstood out of its context... what do you take it to mean?

Judith Butler said gender is performative, not a performance. If you're a nerd there is quite an interesting distinction between the two (regardless of whether you think JB is coherent in this topic...!)

And this where policy stops being sexy and becomes boring safeguarding 😂😂

💯

Vulnerable does not mean safe.

An example, during a psychotic episode, an unwell person has trouble keeping themselves safe and will likely experience intense fear, confusion, and distress. Their heightened vulnerability puts those around them at increased risk.

We can see the risk that some males with trans identities present to women, because they advertise it openly. I suspect that many of these males are vulnerable (I think many have personality disorders) but they are also a danger to others.

Aww thank you I’ve enjoyed discussing it with you!
I think when people get past the semantics they eventually start thinking the real question is to what extent should self-id inform rights given that the self is such a subjective, deeply influenced concept, yet clearly very real.

Exactly.

I would say that gender and politics may form part of our identity, or not, and that may change over time.

Someone stating, ‘I am a Labour through and through’ is a tell tale sign that they see their political affiliation as being a significant part of who they are. Someone else may be a strong supporter of Labour, canvass for them etc. but see this as a reasoned political position rather than a part of ‘who they are’.

One’s sex is an immutable fact, but whether it is viewed as a salient part of one’s identity will differ over time and between people. On top of this, people will load meaning (and gendered ideas) on to what it means to be of one sex or another and this will impact on how and whether one’s sex becomes and stays a core part of one’s identity.

It’s interesting that ‘gender identity’ is regarded as a stand alone phenomenon in a way that ‘religious identity’ or ‘political identity’ isn’t. It is simply one of many elements that may feature heavily, or not at all, in one’s identity. Even those who regard ‘gender’ to be a foundational aspect of who they are, are unlikely to think this is all there is to who they are. They will see and recognise differences between themselves and others who share ‘their gender’.

And if you go by Acceptance without exception (Stonewall) & I am who I say I am (Amnesty & Steph Richards) then you can’t say that one person claiming to be trans is any less so than another. Whatever their motives.

All people do surely?

I look at gender much the same way as I do religion as it's another belief system based on "trust me, can't prove this but trust me IT IS TRUE and if you don't abide by my unprovable beliefs YOU ARE A SINNER". I accept that some people wholly believe they have souls and are judged by an unseen all powerful god and their identity as a member of a particular religion is real and meaningful for them: I don't myself accept that souls are real, the god exists or that my lack of belief means I am an evil sinner.

I also look at it much the same way as I do serious mental illness: people can genuinely believe themselves to be something they are not. That their belief is fervent doesn't make it a real one.

What is absolutely clear is that given the lack of consensus and lack of ability of genderists to fully explain their definition, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for sterilising children on the basis of “innate gender identity”.

And those that do knowing full well their explanation doesn’t stand up to scrutiny are doing so malevolently as a result.