Not again! - Government is proposing to allow trans-identifying boys into under 18s girls’ school sport - unless it is deemed unsafe

If the only man you can outrun is 79 years old, then you must be in really poor shape. Getting fitter and stronger will help you feel empowered. Then you'll soon be able to outrun fat younger men, too..

Serena Williams wants to keep men out of women's tennis

Mediocre males exist and that's why women shouldn't assume they will always lose against them.

That means people who aren't women arent always stronger and better than those who are women.

As I have just noted, I am able to outrun my 79 year old father. But that is irrelevant to whether women and girls need single sex sport.

This.

I think from hearing all your views on this, I definitely wont be raising my daughters to whine about competition against boys. In fact I will encourage her participation in as much mixed sex sport as possible, so she develops the belief in herself that I have. I would hate for her to think "oh there's a boy so I have no contribution to make now".

So i thank you all for that. I definitely don't want one of those children.

It means he's a mediocre male boxer

The boxer in your example was raised female and has some sort of genetic condition. That isn't the same as someone who was born and raised as a male and has normal male anatomy etc. It isn't as simple as a man putting on a bra and turning up at boxing. It is disingenuous to say otherwise and it means that people won't even listen to the facts about their condition as it seems like you are lying for nefarious reasons.

Obviously, Khelif is able to be beaten by women despite not being the same as them. That means people who aren't women arent always stronger and better than those who are women.

Not understanding or applying safeguarding is not a good thing.

The fact that some women can beat some men (unfit as I am, I could outrun my 79 year old father) is irrelevant. Thousands of school boys could beat female Olympic athletes (including black women):

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Maybe we don't see complete isolation from the boys aas safeguarding in Black cultures. We might see it more like weird social isolation based on the fragility of girls in other, more dominant cultures.

The boxer (and the runner) in the example I gave is male.

It's irrelevant whether or not males who compete against females are transwomen.

And yes, some women have beaten both Khelif and Semenya in the past. However, that doesn't make it fair that they are competing in the women's events (or safe, in the case of boxing).

Edited to add: so to bring it back to the theme of this thread... Some sports lessons at school need to be single-sex. Some don't. In this example, everyone could do athletics together as a lesson but in competition it would be single-sex. Where single-sex is deemed necessary, nobody from the opposite sex should be allowed.

I dont think black girls are as bothered by mixed sex sports overall. Maybe because we tend to be more athletic than our white counterparts and so we arent as scared to compete.

if we are determined to go there, I think black girls deserve the same safeguarding as white girls, and the existence of objections from the girls themselves are the least of all reasons why a girls-only sport shouldn’t introduce selected boys. It’s wrong even if no girl objects.

and?

Stereotypes are always based on a kernel of fact or history, or they wouldn’t stick. It doesn’t mitigate the harm they do.

Does this discussion incorrectly teach girls they are weaker than boys? Maybe, and maybe a bit too much, so you’re wise to raise the issue. It’s true that any particular girl can soundly beat a whole cohort of boys. But on average the boys any girl can beat will be younger than she is (except possible for a short duration during her puberty). These differences are recognized in law, and don’t go away if we don’t see them.

Introducing race is, for obvious reasons, uncomfortable at best.

The boxer isnt a trans woman, and the other thing is that women have beat that boxer before.

Surveys depend so much on the exact questions asked. And remember so many of these girls are being indoctrinated into genderideology by schools, often by activist teachers or teachers who have themselves been indoctrinated at university with courses in queer theory as part of their teaching degrees.

And, once again, children are not responsible for their own safeguarding.

Id hate if I was raised to believe that the boys were always going to be better than me and it would be dangerous for me to join in.

Damn right. Those women that Imane Khelif was punching in the boxing ring should have just moved faster out of the way. They should have trained harder to punch back harder. They shouldn't be held back by their smaller hearts, smaller lungs, lower muscle mass, less responsive fast-twitch muscles and more fragile skulls.

And those women who Caster Semenya beat on the athletic track should have also trained harder. Lung and heart differences, meh. The fact that they will never run as efficiently because of the angle of their thigh bone in their pelvis... pah.

Girls should be taught that physics and biology are sexist and that all they need to be just as good as the boys is belief and hard graft.

Perhaps we should also encourage the Paralympians to compete in the Olympics? Based on this logic, it does feel a bit unfair to rob them of the opportunity to demonstrate that they are just the same.

Edited for clarity: ⬆️ this is sarcasm.

That they can be strong and fast, too, and that isnt always the way you win, anyway.

This is true. In women's tennis it's all about the rallies, not the aces. In women's football, it's much more about the shorter passing sequences, not hoofing it as far as possible. But the thing that makes this work is that the women get to compete in their own categories. They get to learn the techniques that work best for their skillset. Mixed-sex tennis would be unfair, mixed-sex football (from puberty) would be dangerous as well as unfair. Mixed-sex basketball could be fair and safe as long as it's managed well. Equally, it could be very much the opposite.

Edited for clarity: ⬆️ this is not sarcasm.

I dont think black girls are as bothered by mixed sex sports overall. Maybe because we tend to be more athletic than our white counterparts and so we arent as scared to compete.

I know a lot of female basketball and football players and playing with boys, in leagues and recreationally, was normal and very much desired.

I wonder why no-one surveys girls to find out their opinions on it? It’s a lot of waffle based on our own experiences, but I think times have changed, with online bullying and the rise of phones and cameras and the manosphere etc. My understanding is that girls at school are increasingly sick of the attitudes and comments of boys, I would think that would make them less likely to want to make themselves vulnerable in front of boys ie in PE.

@GlovedhandsCecilia Do you think black girls don’t have the same issues with misogyny?

Wow. I wake up to discover the thread had descended into racism .

It's just an observation from my lived experience as a Black woman. We arent as intimidated by men and have more belief in ourselves, it seems.

I can beat a lot of men at basketball 1v1 because I have more skill and experience than them having been a basketball player for much of my life.

I think I can beat a lot of men up, too.

It isn't about pretending that there arent differences, it's about understanding that those differences are on a spectrum and you can develop things like speed and skill that will mean you can compete with men.

I think some of us have been raised to understand our power and potential as physical beings, and others have been raised to see themselves as pretty powerless and at the mercy of men. I am so glad I wasnt raised with that sense of inadequacy.

But women are physically weaker and slower than men, there are a few small number of exceptions where elite athlete females will be stronger and faster than average men, or average women will be stronger and faster than elderly ill men but from around the age of 10 boys will be stronger and faster than girls.

This means that in the average PE class or school sports event if you have boys and girls racing in 100m the winner will be a boy, no safety issue because it’s not a contact sport but the girls have very very very little chance of ever winning the race so it’s unfair. The same for long jump, discus, javelins, high jump, shotput….

Pretending that there is no physical difference can be harmful physically and psychologically, physically because girls can be injured. Psychologically because we would be telling girls that the only reason they keep losing is that they aren’t trying hard enough or aren’t training long enough or just aren’t very good. From a safety aspect it is also important that girls know that in a physical confrontation with a boy they can’t rely on strength because they will be outclassed, in a dangerous situation they should be aiming for distance and getting away not on winning the fight. This is what is taught in self defence and the way that women are most likely to survive an attack.

I do think Black women are raised to know their strength though, physically and mentally.

Kaboom, after noting and rejecting the sex stereotyping, down from space lands the racial stereotyping to replace it. Oh well.