My son's girlfriend and pronouns

This is probably one of the most coherent explanations of the word "gender" (in relation to gender identity) that I've ever read.

I still don't believe that I, or anyone else, has a "gender identity" (instead I recognise that we all respond to sex-based societal expectations and limitations in different ways) but your description of gender as an explanation for this response reads really well.

Ultimately though, the idea of gender identity all comes down to each of us answering one question: "which set of sex-based stereotypes fits you best?" If it's variable, you're gender-fluid or non-binary, if it's mostly female stereotypes you're a "woman" and if it's mostly male you're a "man".... but all of that requires a belief in gender as an essence or soul that is present within each of us and is separate from the physical body. Some people believe we have this. Great, as long as they aren't imposing that belief onto others as fact, including vulnerable children and young adults, they can hold the belief that they have a gender identity of the opposite sex and live their lives happily doing so. Perhaps you do believe in it, perhaps not? This sentence could be read either way ⬇️

Different people experience it differently, and it doesn't live solely inside us.

I (and many others) don't believe that gender identity exists, so what those who believe in it can't do is force others to act as if it does e.g. going into changing rooms/loos or sports etc that align with their gender identity (where this is different from their sex).

But back to the OP, the son's partner clearly does believe in gender identity. The son too, presumably. I actually agree with the PPs above who say it will be unproductive challenging this directly. Whether that's with the son or the partner. That said, I wouldn't use the partner's preferred pronouns because that would involve me saying something I don't believe, just to keep the peace. Instead, I would avoid the topic and would avoid using any pronouns at all. If challenged I would explain that I don't believe in gender identity, but I'm being respectful of the son and partner's belief in it by not using pronouns and not debating the subject. If nothing but positive and active belief in the partner's identity is acceptable (to the son and partner) I would reluctantly, and with huge sadness, grieve the loss of the relationship and step away. No child or parent should ever use emotional blackmail to force the other to adopt their belief. It should be possible to believe different things, recognise that this is OK and find ways to focus on other things that are important within the family relationship.

Edited for typos and clarity.

If the nouns woman and man have no shared meaning then it follows that pronouns don’t either. Who are you to say what words people can use to describe themselves. We didn’t make the rules.

Where does she say that she lectured them? She had a conversation with them. She’s entitled to state her opinions during conversations whether you think it’s cringy annd embarrassing or not. Personally, I find buying in to gender ideology is far more cringy and embarrassing.

Ok, HSH, fact remains that's a title not a pronoun. It's amazing to be as fixated on a feature of grammar as GCs are with pronouns but then still get it wrong when you're required to produce an example of one.

Don't oppress me. It's how i choose to be addressed.

I was thinking of using "They/Them/Lie and Appropriate".

Those aren't pronouns.

Indeed...like "The Most Serene Highness, SadtimesinFife"...."Your Worship"... 😀

Ok. And my take from OP is that regardless of her views or their validity, trying to lecture her son's trans partner about "the many ways to be a woman" is cringey and embarrassing behaviour, it'll be obvious to everyone why she brought the topic up, and she's naive if she thinks the partner doesn't already know this, or that the conversation will have any effect beyond embarrassing her son and making his partner feel awkward and berated.

Sex is biological, unchangeable and binary. Yes, there are genetic and developmental situations where the binary blurs, but these are exceptions and not proof of how sex is not actually binary after all. We evolved down a long line of male / female mammalian ancestors. Simple as that.

Gender, however, is not a thing that can be objectively measured. It's a process. It's one of the main ways we interact with each other and with society. It's an ongoing negotiation between internal experiences and societal expectations, and is highly context dependent with different expressions in different situations.

It's not a fixed property of the human mind, waiting to be discovered. Different people experience it differently, and it doesn't live solely inside us. Our gender is a response to the world around us as well as a response to our own biology, and also our own sexuality. Some people feel at home inside their gender expectations. Some people fight to redefine what gender means. Others feel a deep mismatch between who they feel they are and what they feel their gender says they are.

Truth is, we don't really have a good conceptual grammar to understand gender properly. It doesn't really fit into the way we in the West understand human minds. There is no neat and tidy explanation that works from either the TRA or the GC position because our framing is too narrow.

I don’t. You’ve just clarified that you think humans can change sex by swerving the question.

My take from the OP is that she believes her son’s girlfriend will always be a woman, however, presenting in a masculine way is fine. Her son’s girlfriend doesn’t have to agree with her and very likely doesn’t. She’s still a woman though.

Glad you agree

Thought so.

This doesn't feel relevant to the thread and it seems unfair to take OP's thread off topic by turning it into a discussion about my personal views.

My point about OP's behaviour being a bit naive and embarrassing stand regardless.

What a confusing thread.

OP, can you come back on and provide a bit more detail about what you're looking for from it?

Are you asking for advice on how to support your son and his male-identifying, biologically female girlfriend?

Was the "performative feminity" conversation with your son or his girlfriend? I assume your son.

(Does he use the word "girlfriend" to describe his partner? Presumably not but it's helpful to know if you're looking for advice).

And yes, there are as many ways to "be" a woman as there are ways to "be" a human being. The only requirement for the former is to be a biologically female adult. Nobody can change their biological sex, even if they believe themselves to have a gender identity that differs from it. The only requirement for the latter is to be a living homo sapien. Nobody can change their species, even if they believe they have a furry, therian or otherkin identity that differs from it.

"Being" a woman (or a human), beyond the actual fact of being one, is simply about living your life. It's all down to a combination of personality, learned behaviours, circumstance and choice. "Performative feminity" and "performative masculinity" are a part of that mix, based on stereotypical behaviours of either sex. Most people adopt at least some stereotypical behaviours relating to their sex - that's why they are stereotypical.

I could be a woman (and a human) in the UK or a woman (and a human) in Afghanistan. My biological sex and species remains the same regardless of which clothes I wear, whether I take cross-sex hormones, chop off body parts, "perform masculinity" or "perform femininity" (or walk around on all fours). However, in each of those different locations my way of "being a woman" (the stereotypical, culturally influenced, sex-based behaviours and styles I adopt or reject as a female human) will differ greatly i.e. my experiences of being a woman will differ because women in Afghanistan don't have anywhere near the same freedom of choice as we do in the UK.

Anyway, without context about what you're looking for from this thread OP, it's difficult to add further comment.

Edited for typo.

So you don’t believe TWAW and TMAM then?

Not sure what your point is OP, but I only know one way to be a woman and that’s to be born female and all that entails biologically. Everything else is just window dressing.

I didn't say that and it's very weird you'd get that from my point which wasn't anything to do with whether humans can change sex, but rather that it's incredibly naive to imagine a trans man isn't already fully aware there are "many ways to be a woman" or that explaining this to them is suddenly going to cause them to rescind on all their previous life choices, or indeed that it's your job to lecture them about gender roles instead of just behaving normally towards your son's partner.

It's embarrassing for OP because it's likely to be entirely transparent to both her son and his partner what she is trying to achieve by bringing up this topic of conversation.

Presumably your son is happy with his partner? If she is trans and likes to be known as 'he' then I'd try and oblige. I don't really think any conversations you have are going to make the person suddenly completely reassess their identity?

I might be tempted to get some pronouns myself. Something a bit niche. But I'd probably just smile and nod and use their name.

Were you under the impression that if you just explained the "many ways to be a woman" to your son's partner that they would immediately detransition? How embarrassing for you.

Why do you think having a vagina isn’t enough?

Yes it’s surprising how many men don’t go around saying I’m a man! I guess when you are one you don’t have to keep telling people.

Cue the resident tra : but women have been born with a womb. Are you saying they're not women? Continued ad nauseum.

Don't think I've ever met a boy or man who refers to himself as him though. Maybe some billionaire rap artist refers to himself in the third person. But that will be online or in interviews.
Imagine addressing a waiter or bartender with ' Can you tell him where the toilet is please?'