My son's girlfriend and pronouns

Original poster

BootMaker · 10/04/2026 00:06

Bobbymoore123 · 08/04/2026 09:07

Imagine for a second that you might be wrong.

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I actually have. I understand I can be bombastic and dogmatic, and I understand that young people think very differently for very many reasons.

So it behoves me to examine my feelings regarding all these matters.

And always leave the possibility for change, and understanding.

I will not ever capitulate with matters regarding biological sex, but I understand that young people get swept up with genderism and this causes difficulty with understanding each other.

I do listen and take on board what people say.

OP posts:

Bobbymoore123 · 08/04/2026 09:07

BootMaker · 05/04/2026 02:07

I have a wonderful son, and he has a wonderful girlfriend who calls herself 'him'.

We had what I thought was a great conversation about performative femininity and there are many ways to be a woman.

But I don't think we did.

Imagine for a second that you might be wrong.

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 22:18

Hedgehogforshort · 07/04/2026 22:16

i am sort of with bonfire. They are very young, so she will be gone eventually.

I understand @BonfireLady.

It makes sense to talk rather than not.

OP posts:

Hedgehogforshort · 07/04/2026 22:16

i am sort of with bonfire. They are very young, so she will be gone eventually.

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 22:16

BonfireLady · 07/04/2026 22:05

OP, you're back!

I've just read all your posts, after receiving a notification that you had replied to one of mine. It sounds like it's been quite an intense time with your son and his partner staying.

It's interesting that your son doesn't describe himself as gay, yet his partner has a (self-declared) male gender identity. Obviously your son isn't gay in factual terms.. because his partner is female. Do they both perhaps describe themselves as "queer"? This word seems to cover most straight relationships where nobody is claiming to be gay but at least one person identifies as something other than their sex. Of course there are also examples where heterosexual people do claim to be gay e.g. transwomen who are solely attracted to females and say they are lesbians.

Personally, I'd stick with as much pronoun avoidance as possible and swerve the topics of gender identity, sexual orientation and feminism as much as possible. It seems unlikely that you will find common ground on any of these topics. Hopefully they have other things they want to talk to you about 🤞🤞

But thank you.

That's a reasonable thought.

OP posts:

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 22:14

BonfireLady · 07/04/2026 22:05

OP, you're back!

I've just read all your posts, after receiving a notification that you had replied to one of mine. It sounds like it's been quite an intense time with your son and his partner staying.

It's interesting that your son doesn't describe himself as gay, yet his partner has a (self-declared) male gender identity. Obviously your son isn't gay in factual terms.. because his partner is female. Do they both perhaps describe themselves as "queer"? This word seems to cover most straight relationships where nobody is claiming to be gay but at least one person identifies as something other than their sex. Of course there are also examples where heterosexual people do claim to be gay e.g. transwomen who are solely attracted to females and say they are lesbians.

Personally, I'd stick with as much pronoun avoidance as possible and swerve the topics of gender identity, sexual orientation and feminism as much as possible. It seems unlikely that you will find common ground on any of these topics. Hopefully they have other things they want to talk to you about 🤞🤞

Makes sense!

It makes sense.

Also breaks me heart.

I get it.

OP posts:

BonfireLady · 07/04/2026 22:13

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 21:02

Yes!

I think it's important to have the conversation.

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Just seen this...

If you think it's important to have the conversation with your son and/or his partner then you should go for it. If your son was the one at risk of permanent harm (e.g. due to cross-sex hormones), I can fully see why you'd want to do so. Obviously I'm not in your situation so my suggestion to avoid these topics doesn't necessarily take in all the relevant information.

This is a very fair point:

I think conversations are important, and I don't agree its cringey or embarrassing as a pp thinks. I think open conversations are how we understand each others views. There's no obligation to agree at the end of it.

But I would still be wary that this kind of conversation could lead to a strained relationship between you and your son.

BonfireLady · 07/04/2026 22:05

OP, you're back!

I've just read all your posts, after receiving a notification that you had replied to one of mine. It sounds like it's been quite an intense time with your son and his partner staying.

It's interesting that your son doesn't describe himself as gay, yet his partner has a (self-declared) male gender identity. Obviously your son isn't gay in factual terms.. because his partner is female. Do they both perhaps describe themselves as "queer"? This word seems to cover most straight relationships where nobody is claiming to be gay but at least one person identifies as something other than their sex. Of course there are also examples where heterosexual people do claim to be gay e.g. transwomen who are solely attracted to females and say they are lesbians.

Personally, I'd stick with as much pronoun avoidance as possible and swerve the topics of gender identity, sexual orientation and feminism as much as possible. It seems unlikely that you will find common ground on any of these topics. Hopefully they have other things they want to talk to you about 🤞🤞

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 21:02

Smallorveryfaraway · 07/04/2026 20:56

If you think you upset her then it's fine to have another conversation to check, and perhaps clarify that after reflection you are understanding yourself a bit better having had the conversation, which is valuable.
I think conversations are important, and I don't agree its cringey or embarrassing as a pp thinks. I think open conversations are how we understand each others views. There's no obligation to agree at the end of it.
If we avoid topics then we miss opportunities.

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Yes!

I think it's important to have the conversation.

OP posts:

Smallorveryfaraway · 07/04/2026 20:56

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 20:00

I think, I actually upset a young woman who uses pronouns interchangeably because that's their wheelhouse.

There's a cognitive dissonance there because my feminism was forged in the fire of 60's and 70's feminism and being at Greenham Common with my mother. And my childhood next door neighbours were a lesbian couple of art restorers that my sister and I used to bother all the time and they'd invite us in for tea where we drank Earl Grey in the drawing room and then looked at their studio at all the marvellous things they were restoring and then I'd take them round to mine to show them the frogs in my pond.

And they were definitely a pair of women who loved and lived together (and still do nearly 50 years on).

And what annoys me greatly is that young women want to, or feel they are able to identify out of being female.

That shit runs deep.

One cannot identify in or out of womanhood, no matter how dirty, of messy, or difficult it is, we're in it.

So better so accept that and get on with being a woman rather than muck about with pronouns.

That's my point.

Show quote history

If you think you upset her then it's fine to have another conversation to check, and perhaps clarify that after reflection you are understanding yourself a bit better having had the conversation, which is valuable.
I think conversations are important, and I don't agree its cringey or embarrassing as a pp thinks. I think open conversations are how we understand each others views. There's no obligation to agree at the end of it.
If we avoid topics then we miss opportunities.

viques · 07/04/2026 20:41

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:33

@viques I thought of the very same article and posted it just a few minutes ago!🙂

Thankyou. It should be compulsory reading for anyone contemplating it. It is horrific. Some of the comments raise interesting issues about why such drastic and unnecessary surgery isn’t viewed with the same disgust as FGM surgery which is rightly illegal in the UK and why this mutilation, with so many risks and poor outcomes, is allowed on the NHS or in private clinics.

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:33

@viques I thought of the very same article and posted it just a few minutes ago!🙂

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:29

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 20:17

A surgical vagina is not a vagina. It's just a hole.

And a vagina isn't just a hole. It's an anatomical entity that is an intrinsic part of female anatomy, it's a birth canal that also connects the outside world to the uterus and ovaries. There's also the Pouch of Douglas. And not not just just whole hole but the labia (minora & majora) , the clitoris, the clitoral hood, the many parts that make up female genitalia.

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I’m a female so I’m more than aware what a vagina is and isn’t. Maybe I should have wrote ‘vagina’ … because I know it’s not actually one when men claim to have one (which they don’t), which is why I pointed out the chromosomes

viques · 07/04/2026 20:29

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 20:17

A surgical vagina is not a vagina. It's just a hole.

And a vagina isn't just a hole. It's an anatomical entity that is an intrinsic part of female anatomy, it's a birth canal that also connects the outside world to the uterus and ovaries. There's also the Pouch of Douglas. And not not just just whole hole but the labia (minora & majora) , the clitoris, the clitoral hood, the many parts that make up female genitalia.

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Somewhere, I wish I had saved it, is a wonderful comparison about the physical properties of a vagina, its self cleaning ability , its flexibility, ability for the skin to expand then return to its former size, the physical qualities of the skin apparently unlike any other body skin. The author, a doctor, then compares it to the sad surgical pouch that TIM call a vagina. It’s non self cleaning ability the way it clogs up with stinking gunk if it isn’t manually cleaned, its determination to close like a surgical wound, the inflexibility of the skin, the need to dilate, the actual quality of the skin used, sometimes penile, but if there isn’t enough then skin from.the colon is used. It made pretty grim reading.

Made me quite sorry for the sadly deluded men who think a surgical pouch ( without a cervix whatever IW says) is in any way comparable to the real thing.

just spotted that @solerolover has posted the comparison. Don’t read if you are squeamish!

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:27

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:11

Those men have a remodelled penis, not a vagina.

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Exactly my point. Maybe I should of put ‘vagina’

curlyfriess · 07/04/2026 20:26

Hedgehogforshort · 07/04/2026 20:09

They do not have a vagina that neither resembles or functions as a vagina.

It is an artificial hole that has to be dilated daily to stop it closing up, much like piercings.

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It's a wound basically, so the body constantly tries to heal it up. It has absolutely nothing to do with a vagina.

Difficult situation OP, personally I'd leave her to think about things now. Hopefully she will take your views on board.

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:26

Hedgehogforshort · 07/04/2026 20:09

They do not have a vagina that neither resembles or functions as a vagina.

It is an artificial hole that has to be dilated daily to stop it closing up, much like piercings.

Show quote history

Exactly!

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:24

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:11

Those men have a remodelled penis, not a vagina.

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The table displayed in this post, was created by an NHS surgeon and lays out the various stark differences between the surgical wound that some men who say they're women obtain and an actual female vagina:

https://genderblog.net/what-exactly-is-a-neo-vagina-then/

No shade, but what they try to achieve via extreme body modification, doesn't even come close to the highly complex, vascular, elastic and self cleaning organ that women naturally possess.

What exactly is a neovagina, then?

I was recently contacted by an NHS doctor who is concerned about gender ideology and its capture of his profession. Let’s call him Dr J. Following retirement from full time work, Dr J is curr…

https://genderblog.net/what-exactly-is-a-neo-vagina-then

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 20:17

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:05

By having XX chromosomes, having a vagina isn’t enough. Men have surgery to have a vagina… they’re still men

Show quote history

A surgical vagina is not a vagina. It's just a hole.

And a vagina isn't just a hole. It's an anatomical entity that is an intrinsic part of female anatomy, it's a birth canal that also connects the outside world to the uterus and ovaries. There's also the Pouch of Douglas. And not not just just whole hole but the labia (minora & majora) , the clitoris, the clitoral hood, the many parts that make up female genitalia.

OP posts:

solerolover · 07/04/2026 20:11

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:05

By having XX chromosomes, having a vagina isn’t enough. Men have surgery to have a vagina… they’re still men

Show quote history

Those men have a remodelled penis, not a vagina.

Hedgehogforshort · 07/04/2026 20:09

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:05

By having XX chromosomes, having a vagina isn’t enough. Men have surgery to have a vagina… they’re still men

Show quote history

They do not have a vagina that neither resembles or functions as a vagina.

It is an artificial hole that has to be dilated daily to stop it closing up, much like piercings.

Coconutter24 · 07/04/2026 20:05

Dollymylove · 05/04/2026 07:56

What other ways are there to be a woman apart from the requirement of a vagina?

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By having XX chromosomes, having a vagina isn’t enough. Men have surgery to have a vagina… they’re still men

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/04/2026 20:02

Funnywonder · 05/04/2026 12:13

Not sure what your point is OP, but I only know one way to be a woman and that’s to be born female and all that entails biologically. Everything else is just window dressing.

And sexism. Don't forget the sexism.

Original poster

BootMaker · 07/04/2026 20:00

BonfireLady · 05/04/2026 12:17

What a confusing thread.

OP, can you come back on and provide a bit more detail about what you're looking for from it?

Are you asking for advice on how to support your son and his male-identifying, biologically female girlfriend?

Was the "performative feminity" conversation with your son or his girlfriend? I assume your son.

(Does he use the word "girlfriend" to describe his partner? Presumably not but it's helpful to know if you're looking for advice).

And yes, there are as many ways to "be" a woman as there are ways to "be" a human being. The only requirement for the former is to be a biologically female adult. Nobody can change their biological sex, even if they believe themselves to have a gender identity that differs from it. The only requirement for the latter is to be a living homo sapien. Nobody can change their species, even if they believe they have a furry, therian or otherkin identity that differs from it.

"Being" a woman (or a human), beyond the actual fact of being one, is simply about living your life. It's all down to a combination of personality, learned behaviours, circumstance and choice. "Performative feminity" and "performative masculinity" are a part of that mix, based on stereotypical behaviours of either sex. Most people adopt at least some stereotypical behaviours relating to their sex - that's why they are stereotypical.

I could be a woman (and a human) in the UK or a woman (and a human) in Afghanistan. My biological sex and species remains the same regardless of which clothes I wear, whether I take cross-sex hormones, chop off body parts, "perform masculinity" or "perform femininity" (or walk around on all fours). However, in each of those different locations my way of "being a woman" (the stereotypical, culturally influenced, sex-based behaviours and styles I adopt or reject as a female human) will differ greatly i.e. my experiences of being a woman will differ because women in Afghanistan don't have anywhere near the same freedom of choice as we do in the UK.

Anyway, without context about what you're looking for from this thread OP, it's difficult to add further comment.

Edited for typo.

Edited

I think, I actually upset a young woman who uses pronouns interchangeably because that's their wheelhouse.

There's a cognitive dissonance there because my feminism was forged in the fire of 60's and 70's feminism and being at Greenham Common with my mother. And my childhood next door neighbours were a lesbian couple of art restorers that my sister and I used to bother all the time and they'd invite us in for tea where we drank Earl Grey in the drawing room and then looked at their studio at all the marvellous things they were restoring and then I'd take them round to mine to show them the frogs in my pond.

And they were definitely a pair of women who loved and lived together (and still do nearly 50 years on).

And what annoys me greatly is that young women want to, or feel they are able to identify out of being female.

That shit runs deep.

One cannot identify in or out of womanhood, no matter how dirty, of messy, or difficult it is, we're in it.

So better so accept that and get on with being a woman rather than muck about with pronouns.

That's my point.

OP posts:

101Alsatians · 07/04/2026 19:53

Dogmatic?How? I don't understand the original ask.