Why do leisure centres no longer provide single-sex changing rooms? Women’s Rights Network on the case…

Then that is up to the dads to work out what to do isn’t it? Again, that is a thing for men to deal with.

Thats easy in toilets.
How easy is that when you are in a different area in a state of undress yourself?

It also goes the other way some Dads won't be comfortable leaving their 8 yo DD to go to ladies alone.

I think there are threats to young boys. That’s why individual changing cubicles are not as safe. There’s a good reason that the Hampstead Health men’s pond changing room is a big communal space. It designs-out crime. Most men (whatever their orientation to anything) are good men and would intervene or fetch help if they saw a boy being assaulted. It prevents it happening in the first place because perpetrators don’t like real-life witnesses or the threat that they could be caught.

Toilet cubicles and rooms are known hot-spots for sex. That’s why in 2003, any activity thought to be sexual in a toilet open to the public, or a section of the public, was made illegal in a specific clause in the Sexual Offences Act. That was argued to be one for equality - it brought heterosexual sex in line with homosexual sex being illegal in a public toilet, that had been in place for decades.

There is no such law for changing rooms. In fact I was looking at the Hampstead Heath ponds Equality Impact Assessment on officially making all the ponds mixed sex yesterday and sighed when I saw that potential ‘improvements’ to mitigate any concerns that everything is mixed sex, seems to be to create more privacy.

Is this the same Hampstead Heath?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/dog-walkers-campaign-to-reclaim-hampstead-heath-from-gay-cruising-spot-b1215548.html

This is not to be homophobic. It is stating facts from evidence for safeguarding the vulnerable. I know from my toilet research that boys and young men have been targeted in toilets, however the most serious offences still are from men on women and girls. I have data eg. from U.K. railway station toilets, that confirms this. Keeping boys more visible is a particularly tricky safeguarding concern (because there’s also cruising and voyeurism to think about), its why young boys should go into toilets with their mothers and why fully enclosed unisex toilets are not the solution to ‘dads’ taking girls into toilets. The family changing rooms also should not be completely private enclosed rooms for health and safety.

We’ve seen this argument before, using the fact that boys are potentially vulnerable in male spaces to justify opening up female spaces to men. It won’t wash. The solution is in the hands of men.
When my son started using the men’s toilets, I waited outside for him and periodically yelled “You OK”? until he asked me not to do that, it was embarrassing. Learning to safely negotiate these spaces is an important part of male socialisation.

Have you considered taking this up with men? Why should women and girls be made to feel uncomfortable because male spaces are perceived to be unsafe for young boys? Why not tell men they need to do better and change themselves? Surely the problem is men?

So you expect 8 year old children to be able to respond to threats in a male space.
But adult women are unsafe and unable to respond to threats in a mixed space.

Stop and think that through.

But if young boys are unsafe in male spaces, that is on men isn’t it? Why should women be disadvantaged because men commit evil acts. Maybe men need to work on themselves and make male spaces safe for all males.

Well said @Hoardasurass
And have to disagree about the danger to boys @Needspaceforlego, mums have always taken young boys into women's changing rooms and I have certainly never encountered any objection to this.
I'm not sure whether there's anything in law, but I have something in my head about eight being the age at which they should start to go into the men's changing room. You can talk to an eight year old about potential threats and how to respond to them.
I for one am grateful that the Women's Rights Network is doing the work on this. Thank you for sharing @GreenEyedFeminist
P.S. Does anyone else think @AidaP has a p3nis?

At the cost of women and girls getting sexually assaulted, raped and filmed.
It is perfectly possible to have family facilities and single sex facilities.
Women and girls should not be thrown to the wolves for the convenience of families with small children or for the wants of men with special identities

Ooh, must have missed this thread previously.

I wouldn’t want to share any space, let alone a “bathroom” - meaning leisure centre changing room, showers or toilets - with anyone who harboured thoughts such as this.

Seperate male and female might make it safer for women and girls but surely it makes it much more unsafe for boys.

The changing villages make life easier for families.

Who provides insurance for these leisure centres? Given the well-documented risk to women and girls could victims make a civil claim for compensation? A few large payouts might make mixed sex facilities less attractive.

No, these people can't. They engage in silly arguments and insults to derail threads they don't like.

I don’t see the issue as long as the changing room is cubicles. As a former leisure centre worker in a leisure centre with single sex changing, I can tell you it created constant problems. For example, you get mothers who would not allow their 11yo sons to go in the men’s but obviously some of the other women in the ladies objected to having 11yo boys in there. We quite often had disabled teens or adults come in who were with a parent or carer of the opposite sex. We did have one mixed sex disabled changing room but if that was in use, these people had to use the disabled facilities on the single sex changing area, which was obviously not great. Sometimes, we even had dads bringing their daughters to a swimming lesson and they thought because it was only their daughter swimming they should go in the ladies, which triggered many complaints.

And yes it probably also saves money.

Bloody Americans! 😡

Thank you @spannasaurus , and your mum, for your work in protecting the younger me, and my friends.

There was no physical division between the male and female sides just signs with arrows pointing to the male and female sides.

I used to work there and spent a summer as a changing room attendant. I spent a lot of time chasing boys away from the female half of the changing room.

The receptionist at the Dolphin when it first opened was a feminist (my mum) so that makes 3 of us at least.

@spannasaurus I am amazed that a town with a club called the Bird Cage managed to produce at least two feminists.

I don’t remember a male and female half. But as a pre pubescent and early teenage girl me and my friends would have been prey-so maybe the men just came into the female area-there can’t have been any doors or diversions?

It was even worse when the Dolphin first opened as you could use any cubicle you wanted. After about a month they had to designate a male half and female half of the changing room to try and reduce problems.

Think he gets off on women’s discomfort.

Just in case people are confused about refurbishing toilets, for England:

In the Secretary of State’s view, requirement [for building regulations of toilet facilities] is met by ensuring all of the following.

a. Separate single-sex toilet facilities are provided. Universal toilets can be provided in addition to single-sex provision and where space allows. All toilet accommodation should have clear and appropriate signage.

b. Where space precludes single-sex toilet facilities from being provided, fully enclosed universal toilets should be provided.

So for example in b is where you only have one toilet in premises like a small cafe.

The definition in Document T is:
Toilet facilities: Sanitary accommodation that contains water-closets (WCs) and/or urinals, along with washbasins and hand-drying facilities.

This strikes a sensible balance where space only allows one toilet. Misuse in such a toilet is less likely due to the turnover of occupants and greater supervision if something goes wrong. They do need more cleaning and good ventilation though.

Hopefully similar clarity on changing rooms will be made as accessible to read soon.

I think that might be a litotes.

You do not come across as a pleasant person.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that is what's already underway in the redevelopment of our local sports centre.
single sex changing spaces with a separate family area for those with children in the middle.