Why do leisure centres no longer provide single-sex changing rooms? Women’s Rights Network on the case…

Out of interest, discuss the design of a gender-neutral option. What is it about the design that is safer when no one is around?

"So women lose out because of men? Instead of men doing work, women lose out and that’s seen as ok cos it’s only women and girls right?"

No-one loses out which is far better than young or disabled children of both sexes who don't have a parent of the same sex to care for them loosing out.

What exactly is the 'work' you are expecting men to do? And how exactly do you see that 'work' happening overnight?

I for one work in the field of educating young men on these issues and I would say hopefully we will eventually see a generational shift coming through with consistent work being done. But you are talking YEARS down the line for that sort of progress. So I think we do need interim measures in place to support people in the meantime while that happens in the background. I wish we lived in a society where we could just hand it over to men and it be dealt with immediately but we all know that's not the reality so what's the point in talking like that's the set up we're working in?

You do know that women are a great deal more likely to be sexually assaulted in mixed changing areas than women-only ones, obviously.

I mean being one of these mothers I've already answered this - an option for gender neutral provision as well as female only provision so people can choose. In the likes of a leisure centre or a new build area there is no reason why this couldn't be accommodated. Then people can use what they need. Obviously it can't come at the expense of female only spaces but if we push for both rather than the status quo of two separate gender specific utilities then that creates options for people to use as they need to. Making life much easier for single parents or parents of vulnerable children/ adults who would require additional support etc

On this basis no child should ever be allowed to go anywhere without a protector riding shotgun. (Poor kids.) But.... Supposing the child is in a public convenience intended for females only and a man comes in, is the mother supposed to be better able to fight off that potential predator because it is a ladies' and not a gents'?

In any case, that there are nasty men does not justify males (however dressed) barging into females' public lavatories and changing rooms. If anything it makes it even more important that males should be excluded from places where a little girl may be on her own (remember Katie Dolatowski?) And males can reasonably include ones under the age of eighteen, or even ten.

Then of course, there's the people that can't stand the idea of a man in a woman's toilet, and those that freak out if their daughter sees willies, because she goes in the toilet with her dad. Places can't win...

So women lose out because of men? Instead of men doing work, women lose out and that’s seen as ok cos it’s only women and girls right?

Honestly, leisure centres are damned whatever they do. Given how many articles on Mumsnet in recent weeks have been people deciding that the glance they got of a boy for 30 seconds gives them the right to complain that he went into women's changing rooms, despite the fact they have no idea of his real age, his ability to be safe, not to mention actually change alone, I have every sympathy for places that would rather have one changing room for everyone, than have to cope with complains that they know they don't know about to make judgements on. I honestly think, if I worked for a leisure centre, I'd rather have one change room and be done with it.

So then what do these mothers want? For their sons to be allowed in to female spaces even though that may make women and girls uncomfortable? Are the girls to be collateral damage, or is their comfort and dignity not worthy of respect?

That's fine in theory until a child is alone in a public bathroom/ changing facility with a harmful male. Then who's responsibility is it? It's highly unlikely someone harmful is going to do something while others are around. But when alone and with the opportunity and a reason to be there then you've a perfect storm.

Of course other men should step up and defend a child at risk and I do think a lot of men would step in. But if noone else is there then your argument falls apart. And that's why it's so important there are gender neutral options without taking away from female only spaces.

If a man offends against a child in a public lavatory, surely it is the business of any decent man to defend that child? If it isn't, why isn't it?

Has it ever occured to you that some behaviours seem to be innately more associated with males, and that no matter how much you protest this will not change? Why do you think that it is always males, over millennias of human history, who are the ones most prone to wars; to violent behaviour; to sexual abuse etc? Is it just because nobody has ever " taken them up" on the issue?

How does an individual man ( someone's husband, for example) " take it up" with a man who is a stranger to him and in a different part of the world? Since when has " taking things up" with people who are not reasonable - made them see reason? Bad or abusive behaviour has nothing to do with reasoned argument; in fact tends to be impervious to it.

You don't put your children in the way of known risks if you can avoid it. Certainly not until they are of a certain age.

The important thing is, no men in women’s spaces. Most of this quibbling is merely distraction.

In reality, though, how exactly are women to "take it up with men"? Stand with placards outside men's toilets?

I agree, but that's a long term educative piece of work that will take time to do well. So what happens to children in the meantime then? Or do we just treat them as collateral damage while we wait? I completely agree men should be held accountable and should be stepping up but that's not going to happen overnight and is therefore no help for women with young sons who are vulnerable but too old to be in the ladies with them.

"Ever think this is deliberate on the part of men?" This is the whole point.

Then the mothers need to take it up with men. I’m sick of men getting a pass because “they’ll never change” or “it’s too hard”. Once again women and girls are made to feel uncomfortable because it’s easier than getting men to change. Ever think this is deliberate on the part of men?

Yes, but most mothers would prefer to have their young son with them in such circumstances. If you are waiting for, or relying on, abusive male behaviours to change you will be waiting a long time.

So men get a pass because “they just won’t do it”? Wow. Maybe we need to get men as a group todo better and deal with the “problem” men. Put the onus squarely on men. They need to step up and take ownership of their bad apples.

@AidaP do you realise you are perpetuating the negative image of transwomen? Do yourself and your fellow transwomen a favour and take a day off.

This is such a silly argument though. Do you really think men don't know they are the problem? Of course they do, and the ones who are the problem don't give a toss because the only thing that matters to them is getting their own needs met. So they are not going to change a system that benefits them. Similarly where do you find most baby changing stations if not in accessible loos (which is another argument in itself). Men are socialised to believe that children's toileting is a female responsibility. And then that it's the child's responsibility. Plus then you've lone parents like myself who don't have the luxury of relying on a man to advocate for their child. I have to do that on his behalf until he's old enough to do it himself. So you'll have to forgive me for not holding my breath while I wait for men to step up.

I think it's really important there are gender neutral options tbh. I think we need to have sections for male only, neutral, and female only. As a lone mother of a boy I'd be extremely uncomfortable sending him into a male changing room alone or male bathroom alone at only 7 or 8. I fully understand the concerns around gender neutral changing/ toilets and i think these need to be better designed with floor to ceiling cubicles and doors. Similarly for single mothers of sons with additional vulnerabilities it seems remiss in that respect to only provide single sex changing/toilets with accessible toilets in gender specific rooms.

People should have the range of options available so they can choose what suits their needs. What gets me is why things keep being built without proper effective consultation done beforehand so these things can be part of the design and planning process for things like leisure centres etc.

The mixed sex facilities I have used provide extremely private rooms for changing, showering, and toilets. The only thing communal about them are the lockers in the central area. They are much more private than the single sex facilities. I prefer them to a changing room where I am expected to change in front of other women and where the shower at most provides a flimsy curtain.

Real privacy is an improvement.

Still a weak argument. People have safely dealt with such situations forever. Eight year old girls unsafe in women’s loos and changing rooms? Seriously?

Unless of course there are men in there. But you think that’s OK.