Trans people are more obsessed with JK Rowling then they think she is with them

Ah right.

Damn that scientific progress, eh?

Well we can now do gender affirming care and identify dsds. Semenya is a good example. Clearly not out to hurt women, has no actual choice and genuinely wouldn’t have known had the technology not improved so much

Unfortunately due to modern technology you’re now never going to agree on what a woman is and what woman’s spaces are.

I don't know what you mean by this.

By way of contrast, the Supreme Court was very clear in what it meant.

Unfortunately due to modern technology you’re now never going to agree on what a woman is and what woman’s spaces are.

What do you mean by this @butterfly231

When have I ever told jkr to shut up? I said I wish she wouldn’t give this so much airtime because it’s l distracting from the safeguarding cause. Unfortunately due to modern technology you’re now never going to agree on what a woman is and what woman’s spaces are. If I were Jkr I would stop trying to win over her haters and instead talk about why we need safeguarding in the first place.
im glad you’re challenging me and you’re allowing me to challenge you respectfully. I don’t strategically agree with her choices but I think what she actually says is reasonable and sensible and being lost to a stupid controversy that’s been going on way too long now

Of course a little picture makes no difference - that is a ridiculous argument and doesn’t address my question, and you know it.

My question was nothing to do with the picture on the door, but about the behaviour of men in dresses - both those that you believe to be genuine, and those who we have pointed out to you are there for nefarious reasons.

Given that there is no way for a woman to tell the difference - the bad guys do not conveniently wear signs identifying themselves as bad guys - and there is no way for a woman to get rid of a potentially dangerous man in a dress, because there is no way of knowing if he is the good sort of man in a dress or the bad sort, and if he is (or says he is) the good sort then she will be called a bigot and no one will help her, do you not see that the safest safeguarding option is to keep all the men out?

shared oppressors

hmm

I am now flashing back to when NOW told its local leaders to shut up about DV during the OJ Simpson trial, because shared oppressors (which was a polite way of saying that, at the time, race trumped sex in the Democratic Party)

Yeah? I agree with you, that "little picture" didn't stop him.

But what that "little picture" DID do was allow security guards and the police to take me seriously when I reported the assault because it was clear HE shouldn't have been there.

If that "little picture" no longer has any meaning how do I report my assault?

What the hell does dbs checks have to do with the price of fish?

We cut out 99% of them by insisting ALL men stay out of women's spaces.

I’m saying that when you have shared oppressors, aligning with others who have your interests is prudent and insulting them is not.

Are you saying trans identifying men will only support women if there's something in it for them? That their support for us is conditional on us lowering our boundaries and protections for them?

Hmmm.

Or maybe the men no matter how they identify could just use the bloody gents.

Actually it’s a passionate defence of dbs checks - which you could use. That would cut out a lot of the wrong ‘uns as you call them

I just think if a man wants to follow you into a public toilet and assault you, a little picture on the door isn’t going to stop him.
and pretending it does gives a false sense of security

But some men will put on a wig, some lipstick and a dress and pretend to be a woman just to commit crimes against women. For some it adds to the pleasure they derive from committing crimes.

How do we work out which men in the women's toilets claiming to be women are pretending to be women for nefarious reasons and which ones are men pretending to be women because of their internal womanly feelings?

As there is no way to know then men claiming to be women ALL have to stay out just like the rest of the men have to.

And give over with the but but but some men have to go in women's spaces for their jobs and men have plenty of opportunities. It does you no favours as it's a very lazy defense as to why some men should be allowed into women's spaces.

Prison staff and cleaners are known to their employers. Prison staff will have had pre-employment checks. If they don’t do their jobs properly they’ll be disciplined or fired.

They’re not randoms who’ve wandered in off the street.

@butterfly231

I know the conversation is moving fast, but do you have any thoughts on this?

Right and my argument is isolating people who would help you fight it and safeguard and getting into beef with them on social media, distracts from the real issue and makes it about semantics rather than safeguarding

They already are, I just described it to you.

Women who identify as trans are people too.

.

This utopia is never going to happen.

The only way this utopia would happen is if they removed every violent person by killing them. Which is itself violent.

Until then we need safeguarding. It is good that you understand that men being allowed free reign would only happen when men stopped demanding free reign. It is a self unfulfilling prophesy.

I think it's a great idea to have flags or messages on mens toilets to say transwomen are safe there.

Now these are good questions.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

If we just stopped differentiating between men and women tomorrow, would sexism just..... go away? Would the porn sites close? Would female bodied people suddenly be half of boards and male bodied people do half of childcare? Would the voyeurs no longer get a thrill from peeping, the abusers no longer feel the need to support their egos by dominance and control, the rapists give up raping?

No. Because society has inertia and sexism is deeply baked into how men see us and how we see ourselves, into the ways we relate, into the structures and norms we live by.

And that means that for now, while we fight those structural and individual sexisms, we as female people do need sex specific support to help us manage the reality of being female in a still.sexist society.

Welcoming to people who identify as trans

What does 'trans friendly mean? All women who say they are men can still use the female toilets, no flag needed?