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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/03/2026 20:28

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 20:24

I think it only feels like that to people on mumsnet because it’s such an echo chamber

I’m simply arguing I can see why CS wants to carry on seeing herself as a women at the same time as not being allowed to compete in women’s events and people are aghast like I’m saying the earth is flat

He can see himself however he wants. But society - a fair society that truly values women as much as men - should not play along and treat him as a woman because women matter too, and you can't accept a man as "a woman" without reducing and trivialising what being a woman is.

HipTightOnions · 29/03/2026 20:26

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 20:24

I think it only feels like that to people on mumsnet because it’s such an echo chamber

I’m simply arguing I can see why CS wants to carry on seeing herself as a women at the same time as not being allowed to compete in women’s events and people are aghast like I’m saying the earth is flat

But do you see CS as a woman, Uglydumpling?

If not, why do you say she/her/herself?

If so, why shouldn’t he compete in women’s events?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/03/2026 20:25

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:40

This is nothing to with trans..

It is though.

Your position is "Other than sports, CS should be treated as a woman because CS regardless of CS's actual sex, "Woman" is what CS believes CS is so it would be cruel to say otherwise"

Whether CS uses the T-word or not, that is the exact argument made for trans identifying men's right to appropriate and redefine womanhood to suit their emotional needs.

And my argument to both issues is also exactly the same.

Female people exist.

The word woman means something specific, and it's us.

Women only laws, rights, spaces and opportunities, including women's sports, exist because of the real world needs and capabilities of women, needs and capabilities we have because we are female.

To open any of this up to men because of how they feel is to change the basis of womanhood for all of us.

It changes womanhood from a recognition of the reality of our bodies into an assumption about our minds and how we feel about ourselves.

It changes the basis on which it's justifiable that we have women-only spaces and rights and protections and opportunities from recognition that our sex brings risks, challenges and injustices that it is fair and humane to mitigate, to a bundle of incoherent demands that basically boil down to "because it says Women on the door".

It turns our history from the story of the female half of humanity into the story of people who performed certain cultural stereotypes and through that derived identity and status, leaving the "why" of sexism and of misogynist oppression unexamined.

Accepting men (male people) as women for any reason, trans or DSD, is an act of debasement and rejection of women as complete humans in our own right who are physically different to male but absolutely equal in our human value and completeness.

spannasaurus · 29/03/2026 20:24

I'm not outraged with people who think they can see why CS wants to continue being called she. I just think they're fools who can't see that CS was recruited specifically because he was a man with a DSD and only says he's a woman because that makes him a lot of money.

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 20:24

Boiledbeetle · 29/03/2026 20:11

It's like having someone argue the world is flat and then be surprised that 99.999999% of people in unison say No! It's not!

I think it only feels like that to people on mumsnet because it’s such an echo chamber

I’m simply arguing I can see why CS wants to carry on seeing herself as a women at the same time as not being allowed to compete in women’s events and people are aghast like I’m saying the earth is flat

Boiledbeetle · 29/03/2026 20:22

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 20:19

I’m saying that it comes across as threatened and panicky - I guess the outrage with anyone that can see why CS might want to continue being called she magnifies that

We can all see why CS might want to continue being thought of as a woman. I'm surprised people are still deluded enough to go along with his grift though.

SirChenjins · 29/03/2026 20:22

In what was threatened and panicky? You're not explaining yourself very well - perhaps you could provide examples of where you've seen actual panic and threatened feelings on here?

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 20:19

SirChenjins · 29/03/2026 20:15

That doesn't fit with your claim of threatened and panicky. Can you say more about why you believe that simply stating biological fact about CS makes someone feel literally threatened and panicky?

I’m saying that it comes across as threatened and panicky - I guess the outrage with anyone that can see why CS might want to continue being called she magnifies that

SirChenjins · 29/03/2026 20:15

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:49

The insistence for everyone to agree with your view - not you personally but the majority thinking on here - I see it time and time again on mumsnet that only one view fits on these issues

I can see why CS wants to see herself as a women AND I’m clear she should not take part In Womens sport - both views can exist

Edited

That doesn't fit with your claim of threatened and panicky. Can you say more about why you believe that simply stating biological fact about CS makes someone feel literally threatened and panicky?

spannasaurus · 29/03/2026 20:14

Boiledbeetle · 29/03/2026 20:11

It's like having someone argue the world is flat and then be surprised that 99.999999% of people in unison say No! It's not!

Or like someone saying that they recognise the earth has curves but we should call it flat anyway

Boiledbeetle · 29/03/2026 20:11

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 29/03/2026 19:55

I see it time and time again on Mumsnet that only one view fits on these issues

<<<<summons last vestige of patience>>>>

@Uglydumpling there is only one possible "view" in this case.
CS is a biological male. Unequivocally.

That's it.

It's like having someone argue the world is flat and then be surprised that 99.999999% of people in unison say No! It's not!

SergeantWrinkles · 29/03/2026 20:08

there’s only one person misgendering Semanye on this thread, @Uglydumpling(clue…it’s you. Because Caster Semanye is a man with XY chromosomes and a DSD that ONLY affects men - which you’ve been told A GAJILLION times).

Boiledbeetle · 29/03/2026 20:07

MarieDeGournay · 29/03/2026 19:45

Awww. That's so lovely. <wipes away tear>
Who's the cat, though? Maybe it's your Rosenkavalier because a beetle is too small to carry a rose?
Am I destroying a beautiful moment by overthinking?Grin

Beetles have pets you know!

Poppiesmocking · 29/03/2026 20:05

Datun · 29/03/2026 19:43

The way it's connected to trans ideology is because TRAs use DSDs as a wedge issue, and to pretend that sex isn't binary.

More than that. A lot of trans-types now identify as ‘intersex’, either claiming genuine conditions that they often switch between, or make up something that is impossible. You will see women on TikTok claim they are intersex and doctors don’t have any clue which sex they are - despite being pregnant.

Chersfrozenface · 29/03/2026 20:02

stereotypes of femininity…

I suspect Uglydumpling means that Semenya is not stereotypically feminine

Well, no, he very much tends to exhibit stereotypically masculine behaviour. Which makes sense, really what with him being male.

SabrinaThwaite · 29/03/2026 19:58

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:54

stereotypes of femininity…

You’re the one insisting that we’re ‘misgendering’ Semenya.

Semenya is male and conforms to all the male stereotypes. There’s nothing female (sex) or feminine (gender) about Semenya.

loislovesstewie · 29/03/2026 19:57

OK, I'll rephrase it. He's not going to admit that he knew he's a man.

Chersfrozenface · 29/03/2026 19:57

I can see why CS wants to see herself as a women [sic]

Why would Semenya want to see himself as a woman? What is his reason?

Because he is deluded, since that is not the reality - the reality is that he is a man?

Or because he is a liar, knowing full well that he is a man but is lying in order to retain and further garner attention and money?

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:56

loislovesstewie · 29/03/2026 19:55

He's hardly going to put his hands up and admit he's a man, because then he has to admit he shouldn't have won those races. And what then? His name out of the record books? Prize money? Sponsorships? There are numerous ramifications from admitting it.

ahe doesn’t need to admit it - you said everyone knows

corlan · 29/03/2026 19:56

It's a grift.It was only ever a grift.
Once it was seen that a man with a DSD could be a woman's champion, athletic scouts went out to find more. It was good business for some ,but highly damaging to women's sports. These men were never anything but average male athletes but they got paid as champions.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 29/03/2026 19:55

I see it time and time again on Mumsnet that only one view fits on these issues

<<<<summons last vestige of patience>>>>

@Uglydumpling there is only one possible "view" in this case.
CS is a biological male. Unequivocally.

That's it.

loislovesstewie · 29/03/2026 19:55

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:49

The insistence for everyone to agree with your view - not you personally but the majority thinking on here - I see it time and time again on mumsnet that only one view fits on these issues

I can see why CS wants to see herself as a women AND I’m clear she should not take part In Womens sport - both views can exist

Edited

He's hardly going to put his hands up and admit he's a man, because then he has to admit he shouldn't have won those races. And what then? His name out of the record books? Prize money? Sponsorships? There are numerous ramifications from admitting it.

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:55

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 29/03/2026 19:51

I can see why CS wants to see herself as a women AND I’m clear she should take part in womens sport - both views can exist

Eh? He absolutely shouldn't take part in women's sport.

Sorry I corrected to shouldn’t

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:55

MarieDeGournay · 29/03/2026 19:51

It's tea time again. It seems like only yesterday....

Do you want to have a tea-time truce, Uglydumpling, I won't post 'Oh yes it is!' so you don't have to post 'Oh no it's not!' Grin
l8r, 🐊s

Sounds good 😍😍

Uglydumpling · 29/03/2026 19:54

SabrinaThwaite · 29/03/2026 19:51

Nobody is misgendering Semenya - since gender is sexist stereotypes (and Semenya certainly didn’t subscribe to any feminine stereotypes).

What we are doing is correctly sexing Semenya.

Semenya has to keep the grift going - he’s earned an estimated $2.5 million by competing in female events.

stereotypes of femininity…