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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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CassOle · 28/03/2026 19:34

Sometimes, people say they believe things because they believe it is the 'good' thing to believe. Whether it is true doesn't actually come into it.

I have a relative who has admitted it to me - they believe X, Y and Z because they want to be a 'good person'. No thoughts that are deeper than that are involved.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 28/03/2026 19:33

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:00

She has female and both male traits

What female traits does he have?

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:33

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 28/03/2026 19:29

No.
Their external genitalia may well look ambiguous by it'll always either be male or female when examined microscopically.

And may not match what’s inside - resulting in dsd

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/03/2026 19:33

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:04

Yes that’s exactly the problem just saying is there sperm or eggs - for dsd there is more

not just sperm or ovaries - they could have female genitalia such as Vulva and vagina and then partially ovaries or womb and gonads

Some people have webbed toes.

Are they interduck? Beings with some human traits and some duck traits? Or are they 100% human with some malformations that give them features of ducks?

Some people have tails.

Are they intermomkey? Beings with some human traits and some monkey traits? Or are they 100% human with a feature that is unusual for humans but usual for monkeys?

Boiledbeetle · 28/03/2026 19:33

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 28/03/2026 19:30

Ah.
So not scientific, then?
That's disappointing.
I was hoping to learn something new.

We live in hope that one day finally someone will land on this board with a dissenting view AND the evidence to back it up.

One day.

Maybe!

Probably not!

spannasaurus · 28/03/2026 19:32

Cheese55 · 28/03/2026 19:23

I agree he is male but I wonder if this is what actually happened . Was he found quite young and was repeatedly told he was female by training officials. Some Olympic winners move into a training camp as teenagers. Not a normal childhood

I don't doubt that he was scouted because he has a DSD and was told that he could qualify as a women for athletics.

I do doubt that he actually believed he was female when he was scouted.

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2026 19:32

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:28

My knowledge is just gathered over time and what is being discussed topically - I’m not someone who says it’s definitely this and I’m not listening to grey - I don’t know how you can make that claim when the medical establishment isn’t even sure yet

Edited

That's fair enough, thanks for saying that.
I go into things in a lot of detail, I love digging into the background of issues and eventsSmile
I freely admit that there are a lot of subjects I don't know very much about. I tend to avoid posting my opinions on them because I wouldn't be confident that I had my facts straight.

midgetastic · 28/03/2026 19:31

I think there are people who want to understand, to find truth, and they will read a variety of sources and ask questions and listen to others and read things they might not agree with

and people who are sufficiently self confident that they know and what they say is true

viques · 28/03/2026 19:31

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:19

yea much better and clearer in female category

No I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy for those like CS - I guess they may have another category for people like CS - like in the paralympics

Edited

Well,if people with a DSD think they are female they can take a test.

If they don’t pass the test then they can race as their genetic sex. Having a DSD has not stopped athletes competing in the past, and won’t in the future as no one is saying they can’t take part in professional sport, though they might have to adjust their expectations , and realise that competing against other biological males is a damn sight harder than competing against biological females.

But hey, we can’t all be good enough to take part in elite sport, as I realised when I watched the amazing indoor athletics the other night and realised that I am not quite as fast at running, or as good at jumping high, as I would like to be. If I can accept my limitations then I am pretty sure others can too.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 28/03/2026 19:30

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:28

My knowledge is just gathered over time and what is being discussed topically - I’m not someone who says it’s definitely this and I’m not listening to grey - I don’t know how you can make that claim when the medical establishment isn’t even sure yet

Edited

Ah.
So not scientific, then?
That's disappointing.
I was hoping to learn something new.

Boiledbeetle · 28/03/2026 19:30

midgetastic · 28/03/2026 19:27

I understand that “trainers” went looking for children like semenya so yes I do think there has been abuse

They'll all be out of a job now!

CassOle · 28/03/2026 19:30

But you don't gather that knowledge by reading links that you might disagree with?

ETA- this is in reply to Duckling.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 28/03/2026 19:29

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:04

Yes that’s exactly the problem just saying is there sperm or eggs - for dsd there is more

not just sperm or ovaries - they could have female genitalia such as Vulva and vagina and then partially ovaries or womb and gonads

No.
Their external genitalia may well look ambiguous by it'll always either be male or female when examined microscopically.

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:28

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2026 19:27

I'd be very happy to read anything you directed me to, please do!
I definitely wouldn't think it was arrogant.
The only way out of an 'echo chamber' is to share a variety of sources so we can read them and make up our own minds. So far, every reliable source I'm familiar with is clear that human sex is binary, and DSDs are either male DSDs of female DSDs.
I only agree with things that I believe are proven and valid, I disagree with things that aren't. but I have to do my own research to work out which is which.

So if you can direct me to a source that says otherwise, I'd be happy to read it, and I wouldn't feel you had been arrogant at all.

My knowledge is just gathered over time and what is being discussed topically - I’m not someone who says it’s definitely this and I’m not listening to grey - I don’t know how you can make that claim when the medical establishment isn’t even sure yet

Boiledbeetle · 28/03/2026 19:28

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:22

It’s very arrogant to direct people
to sources because they disagree with you and you want them to agree - assigning them reading 😂😂

I’m happy to agree to disagree - I don’t want be in the mumsnet echo chamber thank you

Then as this board gets called an echo chamber regularly why are you here? I mean you are more than welcome but I don't understand why you'd want to be here?

And directing people to sources isn't arrogant. The local preachers used to direct me to passages of the bible on a regular basis as I walked through town. So I read them. I still think they are a bunch of loony tunes but I didn't think they were arrogant wanting me to read something that may make me come round to their way of thinking.

CassOle · 28/03/2026 19:27

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:22

It’s very arrogant to direct people
to sources because they disagree with you and you want them to agree - assigning them reading 😂😂

I’m happy to agree to disagree - I don’t want be in the mumsnet echo chamber thank you

None of us are omniscient. I often read links posted by people that I disagree with.

I must be weird, as I find it helpful when trying to understand what others think. Some things have even caused me to review my own position on a subject. Surely that is the opposite of being in an echo chamber?

midgetastic · 28/03/2026 19:27

Cheese55 · 28/03/2026 19:23

I agree he is male but I wonder if this is what actually happened . Was he found quite young and was repeatedly told he was female by training officials. Some Olympic winners move into a training camp as teenagers. Not a normal childhood

I understand that “trainers” went looking for children like semenya so yes I do think there has been abuse

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2026 19:27

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:22

It’s very arrogant to direct people
to sources because they disagree with you and you want them to agree - assigning them reading 😂😂

I’m happy to agree to disagree - I don’t want be in the mumsnet echo chamber thank you

I'd be very happy to read anything you directed me to, please do!
I definitely wouldn't think it was arrogant.
The only way out of an 'echo chamber' is to share a variety of sources so we can read them and make up our own minds. So far, every reliable source I'm familiar with is clear that human sex is binary, and DSDs are either male DSDs of female DSDs.
I only agree with things that I believe are proven and valid, I disagree with things that aren't. but I have to do my own research to work out which is which.

So if you can direct me to a source that says otherwise, I'd be happy to read it, and I wouldn't feel you had been arrogant at all.

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:24

heathspeedwell · 28/03/2026 19:20

Let's just take a second to look at Semenya's wedding photo. If he genuinely identifies as a woman, why is he letting his wife grope his breast in their official wedding photos? Note how he has placed his hand on her shoulder, not her breast.
It couldn't be clearer that they both know he's a man.

I saw one of her embracing her bottom! So that refutes that theory

you are making judgements on someones complicated internal biology on how they are standing!

Cheese55 · 28/03/2026 19:23

spannasaurus · 28/03/2026 19:09

I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years*, Semanya writes another biography about how he was exploited by trainers or officials and he now understands that he is really male.

*once he can't earn money from his current grift

I agree he is male but I wonder if this is what actually happened . Was he found quite young and was repeatedly told he was female by training officials. Some Olympic winners move into a training camp as teenagers. Not a normal childhood

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:22

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2026 19:18

Any sources, evidence, or anything at all to back up your claims,Uglydumpling?
Unlike you, most people don't think it is a sign of 'arrogance' to share sources.

It’s very arrogant to direct people
to sources because they disagree with you and you want them to agree - assigning them reading 😂😂

I’m happy to agree to disagree - I don’t want be in the mumsnet echo chamber thank you

heathspeedwell · 28/03/2026 19:20

Let's just take a second to look at Semenya's wedding photo. If he genuinely identifies as a woman, why is he letting his wife grope his breast in their official wedding photos? Note how he has placed his hand on her shoulder, not her breast.
It couldn't be clearer that they both know he's a man.

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:19

viques · 28/03/2026 19:17

It’s easy.

Biologically female people compete against other biologically female people.

Anyone else can compete against who ever they choose to. If they are good enough they will win prizes and medals.

yea much better and clearer in female category

No I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy for those like CS - I guess they may have another category for people like CS - like in the paralympics

thetinsoldier · 28/03/2026 19:19

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 18:56

If that were the case it would t be being debated over as you well know

lol

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2026 19:18

Uglydumpling · 28/03/2026 19:16

That’s very over simplified as you well know

Any sources, evidence, or anything at all to back up your claims,Uglydumpling?
Unlike you, most people don't think it is a sign of 'arrogance' to share sources.