Why do activists always say "sex and gender are different" in biology-based discussions? (and any other questions MNers have have about pro-trans talking points)

Or you can talk to them about sequential hermaphoditism https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/animals-that-can-change-sex

Probably best if you don't ask if they believe they're actually a clown fish. I've seen it happen. It wasn't pretty, but oh, it was funny, because the genius in complicated biology didn't have a clue what she was talking about.

Thanks for that perspective. It seemed to me in my teens that a lot of girls went from 'boys, eugh stinky things' to 'Boys! Hunt them down! Get a boyfriend. Worry about the personality later! Single sex schools have a lot to answer for, but I think they should be segregated academically somehow'

Thanks. I had that message too, as I dressed in my cord dungarees with long plaits, only I had parents who added to that 'as long as you're treated with respect and fairly. If not, then all bets are off.' My current favourite sweatshirt reads 'underestimate me. That'll be fun.' It's sugar pink, and the only sugar pink item of clothing I've had since my grandmother used to buy me and my feminine big sister matching apparently indestructible little lacey dresses. It's a family joke that she used to buy us matching embroidery kits too. I'd do both of them because it's one of my passions and she'd then say how much neater my sister's one was. We got extra pocket money if we could avoid laughing till she'd gone and authority think that I have a terrible relationship with it because I don't take it seriously or automatically respect it. I never considered that as anything except being me and I now realise how lucky I was.

It’s a deep and complex interaction between hormones and chromosomes and the SRY gene and deep epigenetics that your tiny narrow minded TERF brain couldn’t possibly understand of course

I always want to say “try me” when told it’s much, much more complicated. I’ll accept that cells became a lot more complicated between GCSEs and A level when suddenly animal cells stopped being fried eggs and got golgi bodies and semi permeable membranes . But it certainly wasn’t insurmountable. I bet they don’t explain it in case it makes sense and the whole sex thing really isn’t that complicated. Apparently reptiles don’t even have chromosomes for sec expression, it’s to do with temperature. Thats amazing, and probably quite complicated, but not human biology

I always ask for details of this 'higher level biology' and how it explains that men can become women? 🫠

It's nearly as infuriating as the, "Oh but if you really knew complicated biology and not just school level biology......." as if it's some sort of gotcha.

Personally, I give the suggestion that I should live my life according to gender stereotypes or notions of what gender is about the same level of impact on my life as what my horoscopes might say. I'll live my life and do the things I want to not to perform in a societal role as a woman, or to be perceived as a woman, I just bloody well am one. Gender identity? Pfffft.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic and @BezMills both of your posts were helpful. Thank you.

Complicated stuff, this growing up. Urgh. Glad I don't have to do it again.

Apologies for the ridiculous length of this post but hopefully it's useful.

I think it's often hard to look back and remember all of the nuances and twists of adolescence unless we make the space to do so. Unfortunately far too many professionals in education and healthcare seem to have forgotten all of the stuff that they already know about growing up when it comes to the Be Kind end of embracing gender identity as a way to explain why someone might feel uncomfortable in relation to their sex at this age. The more you take the time to remember this stuff, or get information from others to supplement your own thoughts because you don't have the relevant direct experience, the more it seems so bloody obvious that their default assumption for why a teenager might feel uncomfortable with themselves growing up should always be that it relates to the normal discombobulation of adolescence, whether that's boys and tribalism/machoism (or lack of) or girls and hyper California-girliness (or lack of).

When you then layer autism-related puberty distress (e.g. sensory issues with body changes), internalised homophobia (fear of an emerging same-sex attraction) or trauma relating to sexual assault (e.g. a girl who was raped wanting to identify out of a "weak" or sexualised body into a stronger or less curvy one, for defence) it seems yet even more obvious why such children and young adults might be drawn towards the idea that the root cause of their distress is that they are apparently in the wrong body. The only "evidence" they can ever point to for such assertions about themselves is that they don't fit neatly into sex-based stereotypical expectations. Just as AllSlugs notes above about decoding TRA speak, it always comes down to sex-based stereotypes when you unpick it. Setting aside the gender identity aspect (e.g. by completely avoiding the use of any pronouns when referring to someone who is gender questioning or already identifies as transgender), this provides an opportunity to explore why a child or young adult might feel the way they do about themselves.

If these professionals were to remember what they already knew about growing up, the additional knowledge they could then bring from their subject matter expert training could really help to expose and end this sex/gender conflation. I'm still hopeful that enough professionals in education and healthcare are starting to remember what they already know and will see the sleight of hand in the sex/gender stuff for what it is 🤞 IME while getting support for my daughter, it's possible to unlock this critical thinking by asking some key questions that tap into this knowledge. It's not been a straightforward journey by any means but it does seem to be moving in the right direction - tapping into professionals' critical thinking has been key. Rather ironically, the more I educate myself and learn from others' lived experience (just as the TRAs suggest), like the adolescent boy experiences above and Marie's thoughts on growing and settling into an awareness of being a lesbian, the easier it becomes to ask the type of questions that can do this.

One other thing I've found helpful in IRL discussions is to only ever use the word "gender" when referring to gender identity. The rest of the time I just use the word sex e.g. sex-based stereotypes. For anyone immersed in "gender critical feminism" etc, the word gender to describe such stereotypes makes sense, but to the vast majority of people, IME, it just adds to the confusion. I also never say I have "gender critical beliefs", but instead that I don't believe anyone has a gender identity. I apply similar logic by never using the word "identity" to describe anything other than gender identity e.g. I never talk about my "identity" as a woman or my daughter's "autistic identity". It's yet another Trojan horse entry point for self-ID/self-diagnosis, and all the identity politics etc that go with that. Prior to my immersion into this world I used gender as a synonym for sex and identity as a way to describe a sense of self. It took a while for me to get to this point in how I handle these conversations but it's proven a helpful way of doing things.

@singthing gaslighting and obfuscation are literally the point of the exercise

It spreads a huge amount of confusion

Worse than that, it buys them a lot of time in terms of social policy and law.

A lot of political discourse is like this nowadays - best advice is to just ignore it.

Haha I was going to say you said what I wanted to say with greater depth and nuance!

BezMills has put what I meant much more simply and clearly.

@BonfireLady
I don't suppose it's the same for all boys, but pre-puberty I've often seen an "ugh, girls" attitude, which disappears when quite rapidly girls go from being those different beings that we don't want to be seen with, to the very people we want to hang out with. Where lads had seen respect for women modelled, the tribal "othering" of girls tended to disappear and be replaced with liking their company. I personally found it easy to play with my female cousins, who I really knew as people, but I didn't have much time for girls in general, at school for example, until I grew up a bit.

Unfortunately there is also the aspect of poorly controlled sexual desire, so yes, as a teenager I knew lads who saw girls just as sexual objects to be stared at and used. Some older lads tended to act with bravado, making unlikely boasts about their prowess and "success with girls". So I suppose those ones had not (yet?) grown out of their tribalism – they wanted to look good to their male friends and were in macho competition with them, but that was still the group they identified with.

Maybe I can add something asaman

Young lads are typically busy trying to establish themselves laddily with their male peers, including getting kudos from older lads. Being seen as a girl or like a girl is minus kudos and there's a time when girls are just a thing it's insulting to be compared with or associated with. Then hormones kick in and you're suddenly fascinated by girls and wish they liked you. It's very weird at first having just spent the last years professing your disgust, to now having err other feelings!

Yet another great post @MarieDeGournay

This bit...

You still don't believe you have a 'gender identity', and that might be because, as you say, your possible 'gender identity' 'aligns with my sex.'

... says to me that you think I do have a gender identity, but I'm just not aware of it. As you're someone who believes we all have a gender identity, it makes sense that you would think this. Very much like it would make sense that to a Christian, god loves me even if I don't think he exists.

That kind of thing will never annoy me because where my lack of belief (i.e. for me gender identity/god doesn't exist) directly contradicts someone else's belief (i.e. for them gender identity/god does exist) there is no middle ground to be found except for acceptance that the other holds the position they do. My lack of belief doesn't stop them believing. Or to put it another way:

different person, different perceptions, different opinions - that's grand.

(When I read that in your post, my head voice did the best appriximation of an Irish accent. I hope I did you justice 😁)

And thank you for your lovely words. I'm definitely not a perfect mum (not sure any such thing exists though TBF.. every parent is winging it to some degree or another) but I'm doing my best to be open and also to think critically. It's fair to say the topic of gender identity introduced an absolutely mad curve ball into all of that!

As for your mysteriously hidden post... You were on fire after all that tea ☕ Perhaps you had one cup too many and whatever you said was just too insightful for one of our regular lurking scolders to leave on the thread?!?

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic your post was also really interesting. Can I ask for clarification on this point..

May I just add that boys often have a distaste for girls that rapidly changes with the onset of puberty

Do you mean they didn't have the distate before puberty or that they did? Which way round is the change? In my recollection, boys went from being peers (and seeing me as a peer) to suddenly leering after all the girls (except gangly, geeky, flat-chested me.. which made me sad at the time.. I do wish I could give teenage me a head wobble!!).. but perhaps you're describing something different and/or the other way round from that i.e. a new emerging distate?

Maybe the clue is here ⬇️?

In my opinion, it is however a matter of identity, a tribalistic identification with those who are the same sex.

Do you mean a distate for girls as peers maybe? If so, do you think that the sexual awakening that you describe coming later might be related to objectifying girls? I guess that could also link in well to some girls identifying as boys who want to be a part of that male camaraderie as well as escaping male attention.

It's just another way they coopt gender critical and sex realist phrases. I've noticed that if you push back they always end up talking gender stereotypes, even when talking about sex. I think it's in part because they think it sounds like they know what they are talking about, and partly because by encroaching on 'our' language it makes it harder to argue with them.

I have absolutely no idea why my 10.59 post was hidden and still is, in case 'y'all' are thinking I said something controversial... it's a complete mystery -what could possibly be questionable about what I wrote??
But don't worry, you aren't missing much, it didn't say anything very important, so don't feel cheated out of some earth-shattering revelation. It wasn't😄

I don't even know if we're allowed to post to Defend our Honour like this when a previous post is being 'looked at' - guess I'll soon find out if this one is hidden too!

That's interesting ROGC - that transition from 'Girls yeughhhh😝' to 'Girls mmmmmm😍'
Or as Cliff Richard put it: 'Goodbye Sam, Hello Samantha'😁

Because I had gender dysphoria-if-it-exists, and didn't ID as a girl, I had that 'Girls are soppy, yeughhhh' feeling, which was bad because I was of course hating myself as well.

Even when I moved on to 'Girls mmmmmm' ,it was still bad because I was fancying girls, but still not liking or respecting who they [we] were. I had acquired misogynistic attitudes to women along with other more acceptable male stereotypes, like DIY and opening jars
Fortunately for me and for my future girlfriends, I discovered feminism, and understood that although I was different from other women, I was not separate from them, we're all in it together regardless, and becoming a feminist meant that I got back self-respect as well as respect for the women I loved.

That really interesting BonfireLady, you are bringing a lot of depth to things I haven't really thought of all that deeply, and I really appreciate that, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

You've expressed really well and succinctly the imposition of 'transness' onto young people who, left to their own devices would be gay not trans
'leaning towards preferences that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex ..from potentially being the opposite sex'.
That's what makes gender ideology homophobic as well as sexist.

You still don't believe you have a 'gender identity', and that might be because, as you say, your possible 'gender identity' 'aligns with my sex.'

Maybe I think I have a gender ID because it doesn't align with [the stereotypes associated with] my sex - when the shoe doesn't fit perfectly it rubs and you are constantly aware of it; you forget you're wearing shoes that fit perfectly
All my life it has been brought to my attention, intentionally or not, sometimes harshly, occasionally with threats of violence, that I am not like other women - including the classic being challenged in women's toilets, and no it's not a big deal, a pleasant 'No it's OK, I am in the right place!' , a second look from the women there, and all's well.

Maybe that's why I feel I have a gender ID.
You don't think you have one, and that's you, different person, different perceptions, different opinions - that's grand.

I only have to deal with myself and my own 'stuff', I acknowledge that you have two dear daughters and their feelings and experiences around their own identities are something you have to deal with too.

Hopefully they make their own ways forwards, no tram-tracks, no expectations, just becoming their own kind of women, whether that aligns with their sex, does not align with their sex, or is a bit of a mix-and-match.
They are off to a good start because they have a mother who is thoughtful and open and perceptive.

That's interesting, BonfireLady. May I just add that boys often have a distaste for girls that rapidly changes with the onset of puberty. The distaste for girls is quite different from being gay – it is before most of the stirrings of sexuality. In my opinion, it is however a matter of identity, a tribalistic identification with those who are the same sex.

My sense of being male is tied up with my sense of my body, when I am aware of my physicality. It has very little to do with "gender" as in masculinity, except as an awareness of my physical capabilities. It seems quite plausible that women can have a very similar experience of their physical capabilities, for example in an athletic context. I have not felt any less male or masculine though when I have been weak from illness or trauma. And I'm aware that I'm talking in stereotypical terms here, despite rejecting stereotypes at an intellectual level. It's difficult to avoid waffling about all this!

This is such a great response. Thank you for taking the time (and the tea 😊 ☕) to come back with your thoughts on it all.

BTW the reason I remembered your other post was because it got me thinking about my daughter. She and her sister both think I'm mad for not believing I have a gender identity, so I had assumed belief in gender identity (as a gendered soul) was a starting point for anyone who then goes on to believe that theirs doesn't match their sex. I found the challenge to my thinking helpful.. and then got very confused when I saw your post on this thread ☺️

I think you've struck on something really interesting about whether this identity is perceived to be an essence in and of itself, separate from the body and inextricably linked to the mind (a soul, albeit nothing to do with religion), or a manifestation of choice and expression/performance. By "performance" I mean that we all perform aspects of our own personalities outwardly e.g. how we walk and carry ourselves, our mannerisms, how we speak etc etc. I'm not philosopher or psychologist, but in layman's terms, I suspect this outward "performance" is a mix of subconsciousness and choice.

The reason I think of it in "soul" terms is because I do believe I have a soul. I'm not religious, I don't believe in god. However, I do believe in ghosts and I think that we have a part of ourselves that doesn't go away after we die - our soul.

I call the result a 'gender identity'. I wouldn't call it a 'gendered soul' because that implies a pre-existent non-material essence, whereas I see elements of decision-making and choice in the formation and expression of my identity.

Although I don't see it the same way, this makes a lot of sense as a summary explanation (of everything you said above) for why you see yourself as having a gender identity. One key difference between your and my experience of navigating the world as a female is that I have never had to opt out (declare myself "different" in some way) of the expectation that I will be attracted to boys. I did once have a period during my teenage years where I thought I might be a lesbian (I experienced an overwhelming urge to passionately kiss my friend while playing a game of cards together, didn't say or do anything and felt rather confused for quite a long time afterwards) but other than that, I've tracked along in the societally-expected pathway, as it were. How boringly heteronormative 🙃

As I grew up in the 80s and 90s, that pathway involved me being bombarded with messages that I wanted to be picked by a boy and that the way to achieve this was to be an attractive California girl etc. Sadly for me (or so I thought at the time) I was a gangly geek, so that didn't quite work out. Not sure how old you are compared to me but although I think you're right that we were able to challenge sex-based stereotypes more freely in recent years, there was a LOT of messaging in books and films that the purpose of being a girl was to be chosen by a man. It was all portrayed as very romantic and lovely.

As per your thoughts above, I wonder if you being a lesbian is a core part of how and why you see yourself having a gender identity? Before I get piled on, I should probably also say that there are obviously plenty of lesbian women who don't believe they have a gender identity. However, sexual orientation is such a core part of how we navigate the world as adolescents and older adults and it's a reasonable premise for the idea of an identity that is associated with sex-based stereotypes. Unfortunately for children, it's also a huge Trojan horse opportunity for adults to wedge in the idea that they might have a gendered soul that differs from their sex - as a child it's impossible to disentangle a leaning towards preferences that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex from potentially being the opposite sex. The fact that some people are gay, lesbian and bi is the perfect vehicle to round off this messaging, making something deeply homophobic and sexist seem like a positive and inclusive way to understand an emerging same-sex attraction. My older (autistic, nearly 17) daughter says she doesn't have any sexual orientation at all. I suspect she's just yet to experience what hers will eventually be, which would tie in with her overall lack of emotional maturity compared to others her age. My other daughter (15) talks a bit about fancying boys but generally finds the ones her own age annoying - a classic and stereotypical pathway through adolescence as a teenage girl, if you like.

The Trojan horse potential (of a non-aligned gendered soul) continues into adulthood because people like me, who've effectively adopted a reasonable number of sex-based stereotypes within their own personality, are told that the reason I might not have realised I have a gender identity is because mine aligns with my sex. In other words, I'm just not aware of it. Whilst I can sort of see that point (and your post gave me pause for thought again), I still reject this idea. I still don't believe that anyone has a gender identity. However, much as I also don't believe in god (and am sometimes told that it doesn't matter as he will be waiting for me when I'm ready) I am totally OK with the idea that some people do believe we all have a gender identity.

Where I think both your and my views align is that, gender identity or not, it's spectacularly unhelpful and ultimately dangerous to lead children and young adults towards this concept when it is predicated on the idea that a) it is an inner essence that is more important than your actual sex for lots of things, including sports and changing rooms etc and b) it being so important means it's a good idea to chop off body parts and/or realign your endochrine system in an irreversible way without any credible evidence base of benefit and a growing evidence base of harm.

Edited for typos

Almost all transactivist “arguments” are designed to obfuscate. The very first TRA I exchanged words with on Twitter was someone I had known years ago, and so naively assumed we could have a rational discussion.

She almost won on that occasion, because she tried a tactic that I almost failed to recognize, because I wasn’t expecting it, but it was exactly the tactic my ex husband used on me, which was to twist everything I said, imply I had said something that I actually hadn’t said, then attack me for it in order to avoid answering the important and valid point I’d just made.

“Tell me you don’t understand the difference between sex and gender,” is just such an argument. Presumably someone was pressing them on the importance of sex and categories in sport. They can’t answer that, because they’d have to admit the point was valid and reasonable. So they throw in the implication you said something you didn’t (referring suddenly to sex and gender, when nobody had mentioned gender) alongside an attack - you don’t understand = you’re ignorant.

The way to deal with the tactic (learned after many years of marriage) is, point out you were not talking about gender, ask why they are trying to deflect and repeat the original question.

Continue to ask the question, while pointing out they are procrastinating and trying hard not to answer. Carry on until (assuming you’re on Twix) they block you.

I was quite addicted to this for a while as it pleased me to finally be able to better what I considered to be a narcissistic debating technique and refusing to be gaslighted, which is what they were attempting. I have now given it up as (as with other addictions) it left me feeling empty.

But that is what they are doing with that statement. It means you are getting too close to the truth and have to be pushed away from driving your point home, because that would reveal the truth, which is that they have not one single valid point to argue with.

Sex and gender are different? Lots of people use them incorrectly and it confuses matters.

"You must lie upon the daisies
And discourse in novel phrases
Of your complicated state of mind.
The meaning doesn't matter
If it's only idle chatter
Of a TRANScendental kind.
And everyone will say
As you walk your mystic way,
"If this young man expresses himself
in terms too deep for me,
Why what a very singularly deep young man
This deep young man must be."

Gilbert and Sullivan would have loved the gender wars! They'd have had a lot of fun with "nuance" and clownfish and Judith Butler.

I read somewhere that Ruth Bader Ginsberg started using gender as an synonym for sex because it didn't get the men on the Supreme Court all flustered when they were discussing equal pay.
It then sort of stuck and became a 'polite' way of saying sex.
Then the activists got involved and used it to muddy the waters on sex-based rights and promote their cult of the special.