Boxer Lin Yu-ting cleared to return after gender eligibility ruling

As they can't be proved to be female they have no business in the female category.

End of.

It has not been ‘proven’ that Yu Ting is CAIS.

It is possible that he is PAIS and that someone has been convinced he has not had enough masculinisation to have an advantage. There is something gong on here that is inconsistent. IBC declared he had masculinised, now we are being told he has not.

Yes, I remember that, but now it's being said that Lin has CAIS, and hence not the same as Khelif? And female, in fact? Thoroughly confused.

I know that both Khelif and Yu-ting were tested by the IBA in two labs in India and that it was revealed that both athletes had the same 46 XY DSD, something later confirmed by Khelif in an interview earlier this year. The IOC and the BBC have absolutely no credibility, when they report on this case.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20260204-boxer-khelif-reveals-hormone-treatments-before-paris-olympics?fbclid=IwdGRzaAPx6cpjbGNrA_HpnGV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHmDU3flpr6TJm0IDKx8-deTRch_y35a_HypLqtMxmMc_ZtSNOcODpHMg0NZL_aem_yZ2OOucrnoSj57H09A9mPA

What about the statistical probablility of gold, silver and bronze medal winners in the women's 800m at the Rio 2016 Olympics, all having a Y chromosome, or that the silver medalist in that event, Francine Niyonsaba from Burundi, currently holds every national track record from 400m to 10,000m.

I am interested in the statistics of probability that both boxers with a Y chromosome were able to get gold medals in the Olympics when competing against women if there was no significant advantage.

I understand this is colloquially referred to as 'penis at 12'. ( Sorry, just spotted someone else has already mentioned this)

Given their track record, I do not trust the BBC one bit on this. Both reports talk about a successful appeal after documentation was submitted, but only the BBC talks about a test.
Is there any evidence Lin was tested again?

Wrong about Khelif. Growth of the penis during puberty can be significant with 5-ard.

Agreed. Otherwise the colloquial term for 5-ARD would not be, "Penis at 12".

Sorry, the point I am making is that I am sure that to some people Yu Ting and Khelif have voices that some people might find ambiguous to categorise. However, this is not universal.

As I say. I listen to men's voices all the time where they do female speaking parts. I also listen to female narrators doing male parts, including women with deep voices. I no longer read but listen to these books being read every day.

I notice no difference in Khelif's voice when I am listening and not looking to male voices. It is a voice of a male who is sounding 'feminine' in my opinion (it may be deliberate, it may be an ingrained habit or it might be natural). I have listened to him quite a few times and he never sounds like a female person.

I think Khelif's voice is quite soft, deepish but not strikingly so. It could plausibly be either a voice that hasn't broken or one where the speaker is deliberately moderating the depth.

By way of an example, here are two African players from the US women's soccer league.

Tthe first one is 'out' as 'intersex' [though probably regrets having ever admitting this so will only ever now refer to it in a very roundabout way], i.e. having a male DSD. The voice isn't super-deep but there's no attempt to spften it.

The second is merely suspected as having a male DSD and either has a midrange voice or makes an effort to lighten a deeper voice. Khelif's voice is to me much more like this second speaker.

I disagree that Khelif's voice sounds like a woman. Maybe it is my hearing, but to me Khelif's voice carries the same timbre as most male people's. Perhaps that comes from me listening to so many audio books and listening where men do female parts.

Lin Yu-Ting has that same undertone and timbre. Perhaps I because I watch TV in the native language with sub titles, I can pick his voice as being male. It is certainly more a young man's voice but it is male that I hear.

I may be wrong but I thought there was something about this in one of the early leaked reports?
It's certainly not something I'm going to debate about😬
he shouldn't be in women's boxing in any case!

Re puffyisgood's point about Lin's voice -
Khelif does not have a deep voice either. He sounds like a woman.
He doesn't do the cool dude thing Semenya does, and I think it's correct to say that he is completely accepted as a woman by the Algerian public - as a national heroine and an example for young Algerian and Arab women, in fact.
I think his self-awareness, and any possibility of acceptance that he is a man, is curtailed by his high profile as a female national icon.

Wrong about Khelif. Growth of the penis during puberty can be significant with 5-ard.

I think in Europe we're probably less good at immediately calling the sex of an androgynous looking person of East Asian heritage.

Fwiw, I've heard bits of an interview with LYT, the voice hasn't obviously broken, quite often with DSD males they either make no effort to hide the voice, flaunt it even in the case of a Caster Semenya, or else try to hide it with a kind of whispered delivery, LYT didn't obviously fall into either category for me, CAIS might be a possibility.

I hate talking about people's personal appearances, it goes against the grain, but um....er... how shall I put this? if someone has the same DSD as Khelif, they won't have much to show in their shorts, that's kinda the point....

Lin's DSD, I don't know so much about.

There's a photo that was shared the shorts banana 🍌 was kinda hard to miss, even in baggy shorts . The photographer did a good job of catching it🙈.

Let's keep it simple:
If your test shows "Y" - you're a guy.

The comment 'looks masculine' has been used in a more nuanced way in discussions here.

In the case of Imane Khelif, it wasn't just that he didn't look 'feminine', it was that he had physical characteristics consistent with having been through male puberty.

I know I'm in a minority in my attitude to IK, but, looking at images of his in his early career, he looked lighter, and I think his appearance in general - judging from photos and video - was ambiguous.

But between the Tokyo and the Paris Olympics, he moved up not one but two weight categories, and 'bulked up' in a way that was typical of a body that had been through male puberty: he put on 10kg, and it went on in muscle, and probably bone density, resulting in the big-jawed big-muscled individual we saw delivering damaging blows to women boxers in the same weight category.

Later revelations about the kind of DSD he has [not the same as Lin's] showed that 'He looks like a man' wasn't an expression of conservative views on femininity, it was an observation about physical characteristics that were later vindicated when his test results were made known.

Lin Yu-Ting & Imane Khelif

At the time when people were questioning Caster Semenya's sex, various reports/publications said that Caster had naturally elevated testosterone levels, totally ignoring the fact, that Caster had been through a male puberty, thus possessing all the physiological advantages that brought - lean muscle mass, Q angle, more oxygen carrying red blood cells, higher bone density, larger heart and lungs.
If we fast forward to the 2016 Rio Olympics, women's 800m final, the gold, silver and bronze medal winners - Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui, all had the same 46 XY 5-ard DSD.
In my opinion, no athlete with 46 XY 5-ard DSD, should be competing in the women's category.,
Currently, Francine Niyonsaba of Burundi, holds every women's national record from 400m to 10,000m, something which I regard as beyond credible.

I seem to recall numerous threads at the time about the issue, so what were these efforts to shut FWR down?

ShortShrift seems unaware that all boxers, even female ones, wear pelvic guards when in the ring.

The discussion on this thread has been about anatomy and physiology in relation to athletic performance, not how someone dresses or whether they prefer stereotypically "masculine vs feminine" pursuits.

As far as I can see no one has said Lin Yu-ting "looks like a man" or "looks masculine". However, in the context of the current discussion it would not be an unreasonable comment if there is suspicion that a boxer has PAIS rather than CAIS and might therefore have male attributes like a thicker skull, prominent brow ridge, etc.