Bid in Lords to overturn move to decriminalise abortion for women

I think to be ethically consistent I'd say theoretically there's ground for that.

But in practice that's not a law I'd want there to be some mass movement to pasx now, or enforce. Any woman trying to commit suicide while heavily pregnant probably has severe mental health issues, lack of support etc or worse

I feel Carla Foster's case is very unusual also because it was discovered. Often late term abortions are not.

I don't think there should be a focus on hunting down women who perform illegal late term abortions and/or attempt suicide while heavily pregnant. The focus should be on support and prevention. I do think that in cases like Foster's, where the action is found out explicitly, the law has to be enforced.

I think to be ethically consistent I'd say theoretically there's ground for that.

But in practice that's not a law I'd want there to be some mass movement to pasx now, or enforce. Any woman trying to commit suicide while heavily pregnant probably has severe mental health issues, lack of support etc or worse

I feel Carla Foster's case is very unusual also because it was discovered. Often late term abortions are not.

I don't think there should be a focus on hunting down women who perform illegal late term abortions and/or attempt suicide while heavily pregnant. The focus should be on support and prevention. I do think that in cases like Foster's, where the action is found out explicitly, the law has to be enforced.

Nature doesn't demand women keep their pregnancies, you're back to using nature as an excuse to enforce societies Christian patriarchal ideas about life and women's bodies that aren't universal "natural" facts. Women have aborted for thousands of years, planet have been literally used to extinction for that purpose, society doesn't insist that you treat women with disdain and shrug your shoulders and say it doesnt demand the same as men.

ETA cos I asked PP before and I think I asked you and it keeps getting ignored. If you're going to talk about nature giving women the role of pregnancy why won't you address nature giving mens sperm quality such a significant effect of pregnancy and fetal health? And why can't we then enforce men to adjust their lifestyles to support the best possible pregnancy outcomes?

Nature doesn't demand women keep their pregnancies, you're back to using nature as an excuse to enforce societies Christian patriarchal ideas about life and women's bodies that aren't universal "natural" facts. Women have aborted for thousands of years, planet have been literally used to extinction for that purpose, society doesn't insist that you treat women with disdain and shrug your shoulders and say it doesnt demand the same as men.

ETA cos I asked PP before and I think I asked you and it keeps getting ignored. If you're going to talk about nature giving women the role of pregnancy why won't you address nature giving mens sperm quality such a significant effect of pregnancy and fetal health? And why can't we then enforce men to adjust their lifestyles to support the best possible pregnancy outcomes?

Nature doesn't demand women keep their pregnancies, you're back to using nature as an excuse to enforce societies Christian patriarchal ideas about life and women's bodies that aren't universal "natural" facts. Women have aborted for thousands of years, planet have been literally used to extinction for that purpose, society doesn't insist that you treat women with disdain and shrug your shoulders and say it doesnt demand the same as men.

ETA cos I asked PP before and I think I asked you and it keeps getting ignored. If you're going to talk about nature giving women the role of pregnancy why won't you address nature giving mens sperm quality such a significant effect of pregnancy and fetal health? And why can't we then enforce men to adjust their lifestyles to support the best possible pregnancy outcomes?

The time limits refer to the ability of HCPs to perform abortions. What women do to themselves is decriminalised at all stages of pregnancy in NI.

I am really sick of having to explain this distinction.

Wait, so are you saying that you think a pregnant woman (past 24 weeks) should be charged with a crime if she attempts suicide?

It's not misogyny : misogyny would be if women were always charged whether pregnant or not.
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Men can't get pregnant. That doesn't mean that to be fair, laws should disregard pregnancy entirely.
Like it or not, (and I'd agree that nature is a bastard to women reproductive-wise in several ways), women can carry another life iside them, and that life has value too when it becomes viable in particular.

It's not misogyny : misogyny would be if women were always charged whether pregnant or not.
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Men can't get pregnant. That doesn't mean that to be fair, laws should disregard pregnancy entirely.
Like it or not, (and I'd agree that nature is a bastard to women reproductive-wise in several ways), women can carry another life iside them, and that life has value too when it becomes viable in particular.

It's not misogyny : misogyny would be if women were always charged whether pregnant or not.
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Men can't get pregnant. That doesn't mean that to be fair, laws should disregard pregnancy entirely.
Like it or not, (and I'd agree that nature is a bastard to women reproductive-wise in several ways), women can carry another life iside them, and that life has value too when it becomes viable in particular.

It benefits society because she tool a viable life, and that can't be acceptable. There has to be some consequences for that, legally.

Can you not see the glaring misogyny inherent in having a law where a man attempts suicide and has committed no crime, but a woman attempts suicide and can be charged because she's pregnant?

Wait, so are you saying that you think a pregnant woman (past 24 weeks) should be charged with a crime if she attempts suicide?

I didn't say it out of the blue, I was commenting on what another poster said.

Hmm....well to be ethically consistent, I think a woman who attempts suicide could be charged if she is past 24 weeks. Terrible situation... 😢 Surely this not very common? I suspect most common in DV situations.

Hmm....well to be ethically consistent, I think a woman who attempts suicide could be charged if she is past 24 weeks. Terrible situation... 😢 Surely this not very common? I suspect most common in DV situations.

Is a miscarriage or stillbirth manslaughter, then? Or if a woman takes a substance or does something she knows could harm the foetus, is she endangering or abusing a child?

Personally, I see little point in criminalising someone for something that could be dealt with via a health based approach.

Yes, I mean attempted (although technically, one can commit illegal acts and then kill themselves before they're charged, eg. Murder-suicide).

Miscarriages and stillbirth are usually not something people want to induce. Especially as we have safe abortion available.

Taking a substance like alcohol won't take the foetus' life.

I also differentiate between a viable foetus and one in the earlier stages.

No it's not. If a woman commits suicide she cannot be charged for obvious reasons. Unless you mean attempted suicide?

Is a miscarriage or stillbirth manslaughter, then? Or if a woman takes a substance or does something she knows could harm the foetus, is she endangering or abusing a child?

Personally, I see little point in criminalising someone for something that could be dealt with via a health based approach.

I don't think this is accurate about NI though. Abortion beyond 24 weeks is only legal there in cases of severe foetal abnormality or danger to mother's life. Their laws doesn't seem to be hugely different from the rest of the UK.

It benefits society because she tool a viable life, and that can't be acceptable. There has to be some consequences for that, legally.

No it's not. If a woman commits suicide she cannot be charged for obvious reasons. Unless you mean attempted suicide?

But how does it benefit society, or her, or the victim's family (also her, as well as her existing children who she apparently cared for well, and an ex boyfriend who wasn't in the scene), to criminalise her?