Bid in Lords to overturn move to decriminalise abortion for women

There goes another label......." misogyny' ( you are very fond of labels with which to dimiss people) whereby 'misogyny' is pointing out things you don't agree with and which offend your ideological dogma - such as there are some differences between men and women and this can entail different kinds of life choice, responsibility or priority.

I have.

“You seem to resent that certain aspects of what makes us female also restrict our personal autonomy in certain ways”

This statement is backwards. It tries to dress up a political restriction as some kind of natural truth about being female, when it’s nothing of the sort. You keep repeating it as if it is a fact. When it is merely your opinion. Women aren’t born with less autonomy because we are female, it is taken from us.

Framing this as an inherent feature of being female is especially dishonest because it shifts the blame away from the people making the rules. It’s not biology restricting women here. It’s other people deciding they should be restricted.

It’s an attempt to normalise control. Instead of admitting “we think women shouldn’t be allowed to choose after X point,” it hides behind vague language about autonomy already being limited, it’s a convenient way of justifying taking rights away while pretending it’s inevitable.

Women who are in mental distress so severe as to think that a self-induced late-term abortion is a good idea are not criminalised, just as we don't criminalise suicidal people

No, she murdered her child at 32 weeks, to get back with her partner. This was not a teen in distress, it was a 40+ year old woman who was willing to murder her daughter for an ex.

We criminalize murderers, even in ‘distress’. Your distress at being cheated on doesn’t mean you get to murder your partner, for example.

I hardly think saying I resent you imposing misogynistic standards on women's life is a personal attack, that's more like you telling people who disagree with you that they must support PBs or are non-binary. I only corrected you on what I feel resentful about because you insist on telling me and other posters what we resent including saying we resent being female.

No because she accurately described the harm caused by you stating women's oppression is natural.

Other ethical considerations start to take precedent.
No you just keep repeating this without saying which and why.

If you cannot be bother to read my posts, I can't be bothered to engage with you any more. I've said numerous times i support the women's right tothe termination of her pregnancy - up until a point, when other ethical considerations start to take precedent.

Why, because she is in agreement with you?

This is supposed to be a discussion, a lively exchange of ethical and philosophical/viewpoints. It is not meant to be personal slanging match.. Do you not understand the difference?

No you haven't. You've stated many times obviously that you think the life of the foetus trumps woman's bodily autonomy but haven't given a coherent logical reason why.

Brilliantly articulated 👏

What I resent is your wish to apply your person view that women have a responsibility to you and your opinions when it comes their bodies and healthcare.

I've articulated my position thoroughly, and logically, on many occasions....even if you didn't read or agree with it. You seem to expect people to use your particular frames of reference to explain their own point of view.

“You seem to resent that certain aspects of what makes us female also restrict our personal autonomy in certain ways”

This statement is backwards. It tries to dress up a political restriction as some kind of natural truth about being female, when it’s nothing of the sort. You keep repeating it as if it is a fact. When it is merely your opinion. Women aren’t born with less autonomy because we are female, it is taken from us.

Framing this as an inherent feature of being female is especially dishonest because it shifts the blame away from the people making the rules. It’s not biology restricting women here. It’s other people deciding they should be restricted.

It’s an attempt to normalise control. Instead of admitting “we think women shouldn’t be allowed to choose after X point,” it hides behind vague language about autonomy already being limited, it’s a convenient way of justifying taking rights away while pretending it’s inevitable.

If you think it's too rigid it's because you can't articulate a logical argument of why the other ethics you feel so strongly for matter more than the ethic of bodily autonomy. Just as KS does in that quote, where she attacks the importance of bodily autonomy but doesn't actually expand on what she thinks should trump it and why.

Nature itself doesn't place the same type of 'restrictions' on the male......even if a society considers it best ( and ethical) if the male sticks around and is supportive of the family unit. The basic family unit is the mother and the child.

Great quote from Kathleen Stock there.

I do agree that this 'bodily autonomy' perspective is like an inflexible, rigid and cultish mantra..In the same manner of TWAW. It is a form of ideologcal extremism in my view of - the sort that pushes every maxim to its ultimate end point.

But we know now they cause a large part of pregnancy and foetus complications , just because they don't carry the pregnancy doesn't make men completely seperate from this responsibility you place on reproduction so should we be allowed to place restrictions on men or not?

Not at all, but you seem to think they're exercising their bodily autonomy. Basically specific rights are part of a whole web of interacting rights and responsibilities within a social context.

It is hard to say how exactly well-intentioned people ended up here, but the phrase “bodily autonomy” getting madly out of control is one part of the story. At this point, it seems to be operating more like a hypnotic mantra than an important value to be weighed up against other ethical values. Within feminism, it turns otherwise inquiring minds into mush and makes their owners look like cult members. Indeed, from one angle, this new decriminalisation initiative looks like the equally foolish historic venture of self-ID: supposedly about advancing personal freedom, pretending other people’s vital interests don’t matter, fond of histrionic cherrypicked examples, and bound to result in a loss of public support for the overall cause. Kathleen Stock.

Are you also in favour of decriminalising drugs, prostitution and derugulating surrogacy, my body my choice?
What about all the missing girls throughout the world. Feticide specifically of girls is commonplace.

According to the statistics, 345 female infants were found dead in Islamabad in 2017.9. In 2019, the Edhi foundation reported 375 dead infants. A study at the Forensic Department of KEMU, Lahore, reviewed 35 autopsied cases from January 2018 to December 2019. Of these, 42.9 % were feticide cases, the same percentage for neonaticides, and 14.3 % for infanticide. According to the study's statistics, the male-to-female ratio was 1.26.10.

Our body is not a social construct. It is a flesh and blood reality. Women have wombs, the evolutionary function of which is to carry offspring.

You seem more concerned with hating and resenting men, rather than in respecting women and the uniquenes of the female experience. You seem to resent that certain aspects of what makes us female also restrict our personal autonomy in certain ways.

Yours seems to be is the sort of intersectionalist/'equality' feminism which seeks to deny any differences between men and women - and resents that women have female bodies and the responsibilities and experiences that stem from that.

"Women and no-one else".

Who else is there.....do you mean men?

Men don't become pregnant or carry human life, nor give birth to it, do they? They don't share in the experience, nor the consequences or implications of pregnancy in such an intimate and connected way, do they? This doesn't mean that women should jettison all ethical considerations in the belief that just because it is their body that is involved they have a right to do anything they please - even in a difficult personal situation.

Women's 'rights' and individual autonomy are respected up to a point in permitting legal abortion - but most people believe that there should be limits - because there are other ethical considerations - that at some point become more important than individual autonomy.

I keep repeating the same things, because that is I how I perceive the matter - no matter how difficult you might find that.

No it isn't predicated on that, it's literally a societal construct. You can look throughout history to see that your Christian paternalistic view of women's bodies isn't a given fact, it's a view point designed to control women. Now, should we be restricting mens bodily autonomy or not given we now know the implications of their lifestyles on the health of pregnancies?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10968330/