Bid in Lords to overturn move to decriminalise abortion for women

"Active versus passive is a coward's argument."

At least its an argument.
Unlike name calling and questioning the education of other posters.

I was not passing moral judgement. I was merely pointing out that you are comparing two completely different things.

Abortion aside, do you think you should be forced to donate blood..etc. should be forced into burning buildings or are you a coward like the rest of us?

It's clutching at straws, and really makes it clear what people's true motivations and feelings are, even if they don't realise it themselves, they're so saturated in patriarchal viewpoints.

They're fighting tooth and nail to insist that "no, people shouldn't have to give bone marrow, even if it would save a child's life - people shouldn't even have to give blood. It's better that a child should die, than that someone be forced to donate blood or marrow to save their life, and it's ridiculous to argue that anyone should be expected to do it."

But then they try to argue that women and girls - no matter their circumstances - shouldn't be allowed to abort a foetus that would be viable with intensive medical intervention, because life is so precious, and to abort would result in a baby's death, and that has to be prevented at all costs.

No. I'm not buying that argument. It's patently false. It's about controlling and punishing women. It's always about controlling and punishing women.

Agreed, it's illogical to start an argument based on moral responsibility to save lives but then say there's nothing morally wrong or inconsistent with inaction.

Apparently PP is capable of calling people transphobes and envious of men, but not capable of engaging with cogent counter arguments. I'm not sure the claims of academic degrees hold much water. Or if they do, perhaps PP should get a refund.

So she didn’t face prosecution. Ok.

Yes and why did she? Because without the necessary paperwork there would be a risk of prosecution. This is the third or fourth time in asking you to justify the benefit of that?

Active versus passive is a coward's argument.

To borrow from the trolley problem, if I know that I can pull a lever at a control panel beside me and divert a trolley from running over and killing three people, and I stand by and do nothing, am I really any less culpable for their deaths because it was 'passive'?

If I see a child about to toddle off the edge of a cliff, and stand by and watch them and say nothing and do nothing to prevent it, am I really less culpable for their death because it was passive?

Can I stand there, and say, "well, I didn't do anything, why are you all so mad at me?" when the very issue is that I didn't do anything, while knowing what the outcome would be, and being capable of stopping it without serious risk to myself?

What a load of waffle tbh someone asking you to explain your point is someone who wants to understand your view and perspective but you're not finishing your thoughts or answering anyone's questions just complaining that people don't want to hear them.despite posters repeatedly asking you to expand on your point.

I don’t recall you mentioning your friend had faced prosecution? I only recall you mentioning another friend who had to push back her surgery because she was unexpectedly pregnant?

Its active vs passive.
Active: Removing all the blood from a child.
Passive: not donating blood to child.
Active: setting fire to a house.
Passive: not running into a burning building
Active:pushing a child into a raging river
Passive: not jumping into the river to save a drowning child.

Late term abortions are an action. They are not Passive.

Passive would be noticing the feotus dying (not sure if this is possible) and doing nothing.

Late term abortions cannot be compared to refusing to donate blood or marrow to cure a condition.

We all die and from the dawn of time we have passively watched people die. Thats why its not a crime to do nothing. It is in my opinion morally suspect in some cases but watching someone die from a cause you did not commit is not the same as causing the death.

yes, in the sense it just ‘happens’ whereas you must actively seek an abortion.

This distinction matters whether you respect it or not.

I'm really not going to engage with Carla foster anymore with you until you properly engage with any of the other real life examples that have been shared with you that you've dismissed. I already said cases like hers are a complex case and not as simple as you keep repeating and that extrapolating from her rare case causes harm to the majority of women who have had a late miscarriage or stillbirth. I'll engage with you more on her when you actually answer where the benefit of her prosecution was and where the benefit of prosecution was in my friends case? Why did she deserve a longer sentence than many men who commit a violent crime?

But this definition are you defining pregnancy and labour as passive?

I take a hard line where it is necessary.

People make up examples for arguments sake, but don’t want to explore real
cases that show that, no, it’s not just sympathetic stories of scared teens with abusive parents or older boyfriends. Sometimes it’s a woman who kills a baby at the late stage because it’s become inconvenient to her relationship, same reason why young children get abused and murdered by their own parents. Utter selfishness.

I mean, did you think she should never have been charged?

Its active vs passive.
Active: Removing all the blood from a child.
Passive: not donating blood to child.
Active: setting fire to a house.
Passive: not running into a burning building
Active:pushing a child into a raging river
Passive: not jumping into the river to save a drowning child.

Late term abortions are an action. They are not Passive.

Passive would be noticing the feotus dying (not sure if this is possible) and doing nothing.

Late term abortions cannot be compared to refusing to donate blood or marrow to cure a condition.

We all die and from the dawn of time we have passively watched people die. Thats why its not a crime to do nothing. It is in my opinion morally suspect in some cases but watching someone die from a cause you did not commit is not the same as causing the death.

So penis envy. Your argument for late term abortion amounts to penis envy. Holy mother of god. Good night 😅

You sound ridiculous to keep repeating it this way. Of course it was absolutely that simple and every legal and medical expert that disagreed with you is just too dumb to understand how absolutely simple you find it! Again you showing you have a real disdain for women and absolutely no empathy for a mother being in distress even if you find it unthinkable because you're unable to extrapolate about how your very hard line position on this one particular case would have an impact of many other women who aren't as simply evil as you've decided Carla Foster is and in many evidenced cases were women experience heartbreaking babyloss. You claim to understand the risks of a hard line position yet are incapable of understanding you're doing this.

Thanks! And yes some contributors don't really seem to want to understand other people's views and perspectives if they so much as diverge from the very particular kind of dogmas which now seem so on trend: of 'female oppression' and 'bodily autonomy'. I dislike contemporary identity politics. It literally reduces people to identity categories in a fixed hierarchy of oppression and victimhood.

I suspect that I have been involved with women's issues and politics long before some of these people were even born...and the stage of 'feminism' that they seem to identify with is something that I went through a long time ago, and have since come to re-assess and reject to a large degree.

Life teaches you as you live it - and now rigid political ideologies that are rooted in idealistic concepts don't seem very useful at all. In fact, like many of us on this board ( which seems to have become quite diluted recently) I've come to reject them entirely. I'd been pre-occupied with life and out of the 'flow' for some years ( more interested and absorbed in photography and urbanism/architecture - and in my own family life) and was re-awakened to the current toxicity and madness of the post modernistic politics of identity and 'progressivism' ( an american import as far as I'm concerned) by the transgender phenomenon.

My degree was in Sociology and Philosophy ( including a module in 'Women's Studies' - before it then morphed into 'Gender Studies' in the 1990s) and I've taught Sociology too.....I'm fully aware of these sort of frames and perspectives ( though they seem very dated to me). Being a photographer taught me that the frame you use to view a situation tends to shape, entirely, your feelings towards it, and your ideas and perception of reality. Change the viewfinder and your perspective shifts entirely.

She hasn't said she opposes most abortion, and as someone who's had two herself, she's been honest about that. You disagree with her about late term abortion but you both agree abortion should be available in the earlier months

Come on, you're being ridiculously hard on that poster. Haven't you seen the posts where she says she's pro-choice before late term and has had 2 abortions herself? She's not the rabid pro lifer you seem to think. Don't think she's mentioned being religious either (apologies if I'm wrong, Shortshrift)

I don't agree with Otterly either on that subject. But I'm suspicious of anyone who uses 'penis envy' terminology. I realise you didn't use it in strictly Freudian way, though.

No. Did you assumed this because I haven't used enough womany words? Or is it because I dismissed Otterly's bonker's argument using male coded language? Can you think of a better term to describe the argument that we should legislate for late term abortion because we can't make men be pregnant and that's...so not fair? Because when you strip away the bodily autonomy argument which is 'morally inconsistent' , and debunk the equally bonkers assertion that a late term foetus is 'unalive', this is what we are left with. Penis envy. (Oops! I said it again.🤭) Maybe that's an argument that sways you; but I think there are many women, like me, who remain unconvinced.

No. Did you assumed this because I haven't used enough womany words? Or is it because I dismissed Otterly's bonker's argument using male coded language? Can you think of a better term to describe the argument that we should legislate for late term abortion because we can't make men be pregnant and that's...so not fair? Because when you strip away the bodily autonomy argument which is 'morally inconsistent' , and debunk the equally bonkers assertion that a late term foetus is 'unalive', this is what we are left with. Penis envy. (Oops! I said it again.🤭) Maybe that's an argument that sways you; but I think there are many women, like me, who remain unconvinced.