Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1914554/supreme-court-rules-legal-definition-woman-based-biological-sex

ACAS guidelines and EHRC guidance need updated post SC.

Menopause happens when a woman's periods stop, not when she takes hormones. When we take hormones for contraception they don't cause menopausal symptoms, even though the doses are higher.

Your workplace need to stop worrying about being inclusive or offending anyone, and start laying down boundaries to protect the employees who do qualify for a privilege.

The Equality Act explanatory notes state that ''men cannot claim privileges for women connected with pregnancy or childbirth.'' I think that now needs updating to say something like;
''men cannot claim privileges for women based on the protected characteristic of sex, including but not limited to pregnancy, childbirth or menopause.''

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/2/1/1

I'm not sure why your policy has to talk about all those groups at all. It just has to outline what qualifies for consideration under the policy and what happens when someone qualifies.

And no, side effects from talking a drug don't count. They might fall under some other policy, but aren't relevant to menopause.

Honestly, that's like saying because a man has headaches, like some women in menopause, do, he should get consideration under that policy. Um, no.

Though one might ask why the cause of symptoms that are medically debilitating makes and differernce really - why have a separate policy for a specific issue? If you have massive bleeding and faint from periods, you take a sick day, surely?

There's a lack of logic in what they've said - no surprises there.

I, as a female from the moment of conception, would have experienced menopause whether or not I took any drugs to deal with symptoms. However, as written in OP's post, TW are only experiencing symptoms because of the drugs. Their 'problems' are only caused by the meds.

I mean what are these pseudomenopausal symptoms? Any man could be said to experience them, I suppose, it doesnt mean anything. Would men get time off for a phantom pregnancy? Or compassionate leave for the death of an imaginary friend?

It’s not Hormone Replacement Therapy. It’s the same medications/hormones as HRT, but it’s being used on a male body so will not cause menopausal symptoms.

It is hormone aka endocrine therapy which is prescribed for other conditions like cancer, infertility, hypo/hyoerthyroidism, and many autoimmune disorders.

I would not think hormone therapy for transwomen would belong in a menopause policy but in a general sick leave policy.

However, hormone therapy for transmen does induce menopause, because it suppresses ovaries and stops estrogen production in a female body. This would cause menopausal symptoms. Perhaps the line is a typo?

Just had a quick google. It seems like black women are sometimes mentioned specifically because they experience discrimination generally and so additional discrimination in relation to menopause compounds problems. And because they may experience barriers in accessing healthcare. Now all this may be true, but it would also be true for other groups (Asian women, gypsy women, working-class women) so it's probably been included for political reasons or just because the policy has been imported from America. This means that the trans stuff will have been included for similar reasons.

I would really question what the relevance of all this is to the workplace. Workplaces policies should only include things that are factual and are of direct relevance to some provision that is being enacted. They shouldn't make political statements or broad comments about social inequalities unless immediately relevant.

Yes. As the Supreme Court judgement made clear.

I would be cautious, OP, that the company doesnt leave itself open to potential discrimination claims from men who do not have the PC of 'gender reassignment'.

I would focus on what the policy is actually about. Is it making special provision for menopausal women? Do they get extra facilities or leave? Or is it mostly about awareness among all staff so that e.g. hot flushes are understood and responded to appropriately?

The mention of specific groups will either be relevant or not to the provisions the policy is trying to make. To me it seems a bit odd and even othering that black women, for example, would need special provisions. Is that the only ethnic group mentioned and if so, why? The inclusion of trans women will be completely irrelevant because if special provisions are being offered, these won't be tailored to trans women (because they don't actually go through menopause). If it's just about increasing awareness, it's contrary to the purposes of the policy to imply that trans women go through menopause. You're not actually raising awareness there, you're misleading and creating confusion (because they don't actually go through menopause). So my advice is to keep it really factual and proportionate and focused on what the policy is actually trying to achieve.

It's possible that a company might need a policy to accommodate men or women who are transitioning but it should be a separate thing from a policy for menopause. Trying to combine the two would needlessly complicate both.

None of which is anything to do with menopause, as that is a completely female medical state.
Any male who experiences hot flushes, ‘vaginal’ dryness, brain fog or flooding needs to get himself down to A+E pretty sharpish.

I’d go wide-eyed:

‘but the point of HRT is to relieve menopausal symptoms! Surely it’s the wrong treatment if it’s doing the opposite of what it’s prescribed for?’

What trans-identified men take is a different drug regime for different purposes and with different effects from women’s menopause treatments. Anyone who can’t be clear about this is utterly dishonest.

Depending on how things go, in the discussion of cross-sex hormones, you might also want to mention that male people taking hormone therapy for prostate cancer experience similar symptoms, but this isn't menopause (it's side effects of medication) and should not be included in this policy - just as medication side-effects for transwomen should not.

Since there are transwomen who believe they get periods it really shouldn’t surprise me that there are some who can also apparently experience the menopause
Takes delulu to new levels

Women take either oestrogen or oestrogen plus progesterone - the latter is to protect the uterus, so quite different from the reasons a man might take it. They certainly don't take testosterone suppressors and indeed may actually take a small testosterone supplement.

Just be aware that if it is a TRA who has written this policy, they will absolutely insist that HRT is the correct term. It’s all part of female appropriation.

What is the point of this policy and who has written those terms in and what relevance do any of them have in terms of what happens at work?

Info via AI but from Mayo Clinic, Boston Uni (US, but don't see why UK would be any different) about what TW take:

Oestrogen and anti-androgens, the former make for a more 'female' appearance while the latter reduce the masculine characteristics.

Some will also take progesterone to potentially aid in the increase of breast development (limited evidence for this) and some take Finasteride 'to address androgen-dependent hair loss or promote scalp hair growth'.

What do we women take in our HRT? I'm on very low dose oestrogen. I'm not aware of menopausal women needing meds to reduce testosterone levels, generally speaking. Does bigger-dose HRT than mine (standard dose?) include progesterone? If it does, it's unlikely to be to aid breast development in menopausal women. I suspect most of us are way past that sort of desire.

Questions are usually an excellent way to go, OP. Someone has written this policy, or whatever it, so they should be able to justify every single thing they've written in it.

This is an excellent point.

This. And no others.

It seems to me, OP, that the fact that you’re asking these questions means that the information is not in the paper. This your comments should push back and point out that the paper is unclear, does not define its terms and nor does it explain the issues. It’s not for you to make good the deficits.

While nothing would surprise me less than larpers larping, I'm completely unaware of there being middle aged transidentified men looking to manipulate their hormone prescriptions in order to induce menopause-like effects.

I'd ask for solid evidence that this exists before approving a work place policy based on it.

It's a clever trick, isn't it? "Transwomen have symptoms that resemble those of menopause" - and then they hope you'll make the jump "I want to be nice to women in menopause, so this means I should treat transwomen the same way!"

I'm sure they might have similar symptoms. Likewise, various diseases have symptoms that overlap with being drunk. That doesn't mean a sick leave policy should treat drunkenness like an actual illness!

The menopause policy should cover the same groups as your pregnancy and maternity policy.

Definition of pseudo : In medical terminology, "pseudo" is a prefix meaning "false" or "fake," used to describe conditions or phenomena that appear to be one thing but are actually another.

there is no such thing as pseudomenopause. (Doesn’t even exist as a word. Autocorrect is doing its nut 🫨.)