Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

WOMEN are the only people who need any sort of policy regarding menopause. The whole point of menopause is your normal hormone level drop naturally and leave you with symptoms.

MEN taking cross sex hormones may need a policy relating to issues with transition, but it's got fuck all to do with the menopause and everything to do with being men on drugs. Men are not taking the drugs to stop issues relating to a natural decline in hormones at a certain point in life. If they have issues it's because they are taking medication for a completely different purpose so have a completely different issue.

Men interloping into a women's only health matter dilute the issues women are having by declaring they have X or y symptoms - but the cause is something completely different to women's issues so it means the issue the women are having gets distorted.

It's like having a support session for people with cancer but people with Parkinson's turning up and saying well we are all the same and should be treated exactly the same. In other words it's a complete nonsense.

Menopause isn't well understood as it is. Look at this thread. It's on the feminist section of MN and there's lots of posters saying inaccurate things about it. That's what we need to stop. So having blokes turn up and talk about their experience of menopause - which will be based either off shit they read elsewhere on the internet which may be full of shit or their own bodily experiences which have fuck all to do with menopause - is unhelpful to women talking about what they are currently going through and struggling with and who needs accurate information and appropriate support. Bloke saying he needs x, y or z isn't helpful for any of the women because he's talking about a completely different health issue.

Here is one for the radar - women who have a history of anxiety or are neurodiverse are more likely to struggle with menopause. They don't really know why but it's something to do with being more sensitive to hormone changes or having more issues with hormone imbalances. No one seems to know this one and it's fairly important as anyone in that situation needs to be more aware of how it might be likely to impact them before they have a complete meltdown and don't really understand what's going on.

Men can have their own policy and their own sessions about hormone related issues in the workplace if they wish but that's a completely different area of health which is irrelevant to women and the menopause. Women have different bodies and their bodies respond differently to men's even if taking the same drug for the same condition so fuck knows why we are lumping women going through the menopause with men taking an unproven drugs for issues with their bodily self image. Other than because some bloke in an office is an utter dick who knows fuck all about menopause is making this nonsense shit up.

Just because both groups use the same drugs doesn't mean they have the same health issues - the back to front thinking of thinking 'female hormones, it's all just the same' is the height of sexism and ignorance. If it's about reducing ignorance about the menopause they could start right here.

Exactly.

They could just stop taking the drugs if this was the case.

They arent going through menopause so I’m not sure why this is in a menopause policy.

This is just surely about sick leave or something

Some men with prostate cancer have to take tablets or have injections to block testosterone which the cancer feeds on. They can suffer many similar symptoms to menopause (called andropause I think).
I’m not sure if transwomen block their testosterone and take estrogen or take estrogen alone. It is very bad for their long term health.

Does it? I have never heard a medical person or read a study that referred to chemically induced or surgically induced menopause as pseudo menopause.

@catinateacup
It’s not that simple. Menopausal symptoms are actually caused by an imbalance between hormones as the estrogen and progesterone don’t decline evenly. This is why some women suffer horribly- the decline of both is way out of balance- and why some women seem to sail through with no symptoms- the decline of both is relatively balanced.

The hormone blockers and hormones that transwomen take do cause the same hormone imbalance symptoms. But just because the symptoms are the same, the cause is not and cannot ever be menopause for a transwoman.

I agree it’s brain rot. The cause of any symptoms determines the diagnostic term used, not symptoms by itself. Imagine blurry vision being due to cataracts being called myopia. It’s nonsense.

This is rubbish. Take it from one who lives with a close relative who is a transwoman. They do not get menopausal symptoms! Menopausal symptoms are a result of women having reduced levels of oestrogen, which is relieved by HRT which replaces these hormones.

Transwomen never had these levels of oestrogen in their bodies as they are men. They take cross sex hormones (oestrogen) to develop secondary sex characteristics which mimic those of women to help them cope with their gender dysphoria. As male bodies are not designed to have these levels of oestrogen in them, side effects may be experienced., but this is not menopause.

For the benefit of those in the cheap seats at the back, I repeat, TRANSWOMEN DO NOT GO THROUGH MENOPAUSE!!

Pseudo menopause refers to medically induced menopause, which can be experienced by women who receive treatment for endometriosis or fibroids, or as part of treatment for female cancers. It is not ‘fake’ but it is reversible (ie by stopping the medication). Therefore it probably does belong in the menopause policy as women who may not be perceived as old enough for menopause can experience perimenopause.

Menopausal symptoms are caused by drops in oestrogen and progesterone. We take HRT to ameliorate the symptoms by replacing the hormones.

Why would those symptoms be caused by adding oestrogen? Oestrogen prevents them. It makes no sense. Taking oestrogen for being trans doesn’t cause something that happens as a result of lacking oestrogen.

Pure idiocy in motion. The whole damn ideology causes the brain to rot in everyone it touches.

As they take both hormone blockers and hormones, I prefer ET- endocrine therapy.

Same, I am a bit leery of separate specific policies addressing women’s medical issues. I would rather just add menopause to a list of medical conditions where you can get paid time off due to debilitating symptoms.

It feels like men and their conditions are the acceptable default and women and our conditions are the extraordinary concessions which we should be grateful for,

We've had blokes come on here and claim hrt is the correct term because the wrong sex hormones are 'replacing' the ones their bodies naturally produce. I think 'substitute' would be a better term, and hst prevents confusion with actual hrt.

You could argue that they would be covered as medical leave under the policies that are relevant to whatever they are taking the drug for.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I would think.

Actually I think it's all a massive red herring.

It doesn't matter what the cause of medical symptoms is, natural menopause, induced menopause, or something else. It matters that the symptoms affect the employee in a particular way.

The only thing I suppose would be an issue would be if the medical problem was self-induced - can you qualify for medical leave for a nose job, for example? I'd say no and that might affect men taking hormones to transition. But not women in menopause or taking drugs for serious medical issues.

Use the correct term: cross-sex hormones or opposite sex hormones. HRT is “replacement “ whereas trans-identified men take opposite sex hormones. They’re not replacing anything.

More generally, I think you could say something along the lines of checking that the policy is legal and obeys the Supreme Court clarification of the Equality Act.

murmur something about ensuring that your business is not vulnerable to expensive litigation eg Darlington nurses or the Sandie Peggie case.

Also be specific about the Equslity Act. There is no hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are all protected and men undergoing gender reassignment have no more rights than women on the grounds of sex.

And the Supreme Court decision confirms that men using the PC of gender reassignment would be. Compared to the treatment of men not undergoing gender reassignment, not compared with women. The SC decision confirmed that men are not to be considered as women on the grounds of sex.

I would keep the response simple and question the use of the term "HRT" ('replacement' is incorrect) and ask what evidence they've used for the assertion about pseudo-menopause symptoms.

I recently saw the term "hormone transition therapy" in an article in The Telegraph. It was used by the defendant's (who was a TW) barrister so I assume it's use is accepted in transgender circles.

Thanks. It wasn’t so obvious for me because chemically induced menopause has a higher incidence of severe side effects than natural menopause. It is also reversible, unlike natural menopause.

Well obviously not because they are actually going through menopause so the policy is for them.

Menopause is a very specific process and no male person has any type of ‘menopause’.

The side effects of a drug regime that male people have chosen to take is not any type of menopause. Just like those male people do not go through ‘female puberty’.

If male people require a policy relating to their own medical issues, that should be a discussion to be had. They should not be mentioned or in any way included in a menopause policy.

You could also go the other way and say that if you are going to include other forms of hormone treatment, what about men with prostate cancer, or women going through IVF treatment, or those with thyroid conditions.

Because if it's just about hormones (and not menopause) why only cover one area.

Men trying to get away with shit. Utter nonsense. So sick of it.

@TempestTost
side effects from taking a drug don't count
I assume you are not including woman taking drugs that do cause menopause?
Many women have to have menopause chemically induced which requires taking drugs.

@Thelnebriati
Menopause happens when a woman's periods stop, not when she takes hormones

Menopause still happens even when you are taking HRT. Which is taking hormones. HRT only alleviates or reduces the symptoms of menopause, it doesn’t stop it.

Ah xpost.

I would be very carefully using the full phrase "hormone replacement therapy" rather than HRT when querying this factual inaccuracy to give people more opportunities to engage their brain and think about this properly.

Too many people aren't using their brains and won't consider what HRT stands for otherwise. Or why they're so desperate to include men in a menopause policy.

From Googling, QMU have a HR policy online that references something similar but acknowledges that such symptoms would only occur in a man taking cross sex hormones if he was taking them inconsistently.

I’d never heard of a workplace policy for menopause so I googled it and “trans”. This one from QMUL comes up and makes sure to include trans men refreshingly. Might be worth pointing them towards this one as an example? HRT for TIMs notably absent…
www.qmul.ac.uk/human-resources/equality/menopause/who-can-experience-the-menopause/