Keira Bell on GMB right now

I totally get the sentiment. I found everything about being a girl limiting and I didn't want to fit into that box.

I went through a number of real passions - football was one and music was another.

For football I loved watching it (couldn't play - I'm from the era before girls were allowed to and I bet if have loved to play if I'd have been younger). I ended up having loads of banter with two of my fav teachers who were football crazy. Looking back those things got me through school as I never fitted in. The attitude was always 'which one do you fancy?' and that was one of the things. I just didn't. I didn't fancy pop stars, movie stars, football stars... But there was a pressure and expectation to. I just found myself wondering why I didn't. Why am I such a freak. I wasn't interested in faces particularly. Never have been. I like interesting people. That's what I'm attracted to. Why should I be attracted to people I don't know? I was socially awkward and ostracised deliberately by one girl (others actively said I'd hang out with you but she says if I do I won't have friends and I was easier to say no to because I took it better). Yep the whole thing about girls and being in a group and that being the best all and end all. Except I didn't want to do what they were doing.

And then it was music. And I knew more about every band than anyone else. Because I almost felt I had to prove myself to be taken seriously. It got a little crazy because I think I got competitive. That was my life - seeing bands often by myself because no one would come with me. And I started to meet people through music. Uni wasn't working for me and I didn't meet my tribe like everyone said I would. I ended up in a number of awful relationships with someone who wasn't my equal and they bloody knew it so punished me for it.

But girls and guitars look wrong. They don't look cool. The proportions dont look right. The vocals mean you make a different kind of sound and whilst I liked some of those bands they just weren't the heavy weights for me. I was actively saying I wished I was a bloke at age 19 because of all this. I can remember discussing it with a friend going to a particular gig in London. I had no regard for my own wellbeing or safety really a lot of the time because I had such a low opinion of myself. Being at the gig felt like being immortal and totally immersed in the moment and totally the opposite. It was addictive.

The internet at uni was really 'my saviour' at the time and that's where I started to meet my tribe and was going off to meet people. And it became at certain gigs about that not necessarily the band itself. It was about this sense of belonging and community...

What I've learnt from this though is those types of online community can be super intense all consuming and have a life cycle of introduction, maturity then slow death as real life takes over. I feel so much on the edge of an era and like I did it before so many other people. We were the first gen and it comes up a lot with our friends. DH and I are ten years younger than our best friends. They have kids now in their twenties too. We are like the inbetween group (we are Xennials) - we understand both in a way that they don't understand each other. We were ahead of the curve. I feel DSs generation are fundamentally different and I can see him also being ahead of his curve too (he's on the cusp of gen alpha too). I think this is why I can read politics and communities better than many because I've already seen it at a microlevel

The issue with trans is the focal point isn't about football or music but a central idea about not fitting in and gender stereotypes. It is cultlike to a greater degree. I know how obsessive and all consuming it can be - I've been there done that just in a different area. It's about coming to terms with your place in the world and how you fit in. It can be about escapism and demonstrating how committed you are, how different to the rest of the world and how you don't want to conform. I think it's about battling against society. Now imagine this weaponised into politics and identity. For me it's really not much of a step from the online world I was living in in the late 90s - until the late 2000s. We just had music but now the cool thing is politics generally - it's why we have the rather vacuous Omnicause shit and celebrity politicians. It's this youth culture transferred to politics.

I did march to stop the Iraq war (ironically my reasoning was about political vacuums and the lack of planning for what came next - pragmatic more than purely ideological). I became very disillusioned by the mix of groups who jumped on the bandwagon and I found the proPalestine protesters particularly difficult in their approach even then). This was again something I did alone. And again I think has changed but hasnt changed in a way.

I probably did a decade to thirteen years before I really was done with it though it faded off a lot towards the end. (Life stages/life span of a cult is 7 to 10 years generally I believe)..

Id already stepped off a little in 2004 as I'd had enough and went travelling. I came back realising I was trying to run away from myself. I think I realised it's ok to be alone to a degree and you didn't need constant validation and reassurance about everything. When I came back the community was really the only structure I had so I fell back into it (and met DH) but it wasn't the same. It was just there. And everyone else started to pair off and marry anyway. And the whole thing really just folded in on itself quite naturally

It was sad seeing some of the people clinging on at the end almost left behind because they didn't have a new life to go to. We all had just grown up and were settling down and were comfortable. I wouldn't say conforming. That's a stretch to far. Just went didn't have time for the teenage angst and drama llamaing anymore. We'd just grown up. But this is problematic if you're trying to actively prevent the process of growing up with puberty blockers and hormones.

And I do feel this is exactly what will happen to a lot of those sucked in. Except for the ones who took it too far. They are going to be truly fucked as others around them exit at various points. They have no exit. And the Japanese Soldier comparison is spot on. You become almost frozen in time and unable to progress to the next life stage. And yep it's exactly about life stages.

My late 20s and early 30s was about me and DH and that was better. I wasn't struggling with self esteem and being everyones punching bag in the same way. But yeah 15 - 25. Awful. I did so much and had a great time along the way but I don't think I appreciated it or enjoyed it as much as I could as I was so desperately seeking 'something' anything. I only found peace leaving it all behind and realising it wasn't about anyone else.

I didn't want to do the whole get a boring job, get married to Mr boring and have kids and your life is over, never go out, never say or do anything interesting cos it might rock the boat, have a mortgage and turn into your parents. I can safely say whilst I'm settled I've never confirmed and gone dull. I don't give a fuck about fitting in now. Take me or leave me and actually friendship have come because of that. I'm still team awkward squad.

But yes I've struggled a lot with the reality of my physical being, got endlessly frustrated at not being taken seriously because of my sex, the very concept of losing myself to a marriage (I never changed my name) and the grimness of thinking about childbirth. It's not lost on me how these are all related to being a woman.

It's the same things just manifesting in a new way for a new generation. And it will burn out. There just will be casualties. You just need to steer those you love through the minefield until they work it out themselves. Overbearing parents trying to force the world against reality are never going to ultimately going to win because they are actively causing their kid to be a casualty who can't ultimately move on when the time comes. They will be left behind whilst everyone else moves on.

The thing that hurts is recognising those who will be harmed and seeing them harm themselves in real time. There will be many who will ultimately go "why didn't I just get an ill-advised tattoo and have done with it?"

I've got sympathy, too, and I don't think it will ease anyone's pain in the long run if society keeps using compelled speech. I'd still call it psychosis, too, even if it was induced by narcissist authority figures (because of course it was, matter of fact it is in almost all cases of "trans kids"). But that's neither here nor there.

Thank you for sharing this 💐

I'm reflecting on what I wrote and thinking about my daughter. Her experience of not being sure if she's a girl or boy seems very close to what you said here:

I saw what life was like for girls, and that I would never fit into to it. I didn't want to dress that way, sit that way, talk that way, wear make-up that way, get one of the jobs that girls got, get a boyfriend and later a husband that girls got...
it was much more down-to-earth than related to souls.

(It's her school that has pushed the message of gendered souls as a way to make sense of these feelings. That's not how they explain it but it's the net effect of their messaging, where they teach children that it's possible to "identify" as the opposite sex)

Many (most? all?) children and young people who experience gender dysphoria start from a position of belief that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex. That everyone has an inner gendered soul. This belief in gendered souls can be firmly held to be true, similar to someone having a belief that god/Allah (etc) exists.

That's not at all how I felt as a little girl with what was gender dysphoria [if it exists, I know it is a contested term.], BonfireLady.

I had no concept of 'an inner gendered soul' [being in a very Catholic environment, I had a very strong and clear concept of an inner soul, but it wasn't a gendered one].

I saw what life was like for girls, and that I would never fit into to it. I didn't want to dress that way, sit that way, talk that way, wear make-up that way, get one of the jobs that girls got, get a boyfriend and later a husband that girls got...
it was much more down-to-earth than related to souls.

I perceived the imposition of the gendered ID 'girl' on me as a limitation to my potential as a human being, but I don't think the sense of self that rebelled against stereotyping was an 'inner soul', I think it was just a strong sense of being entitled to be the equal of boys, and that, in my child's mind, and in the context of a sexist society, meant not being a girl. Therefore, somehow, being a boy instead...

Fortunately I found ways of being a different kind of girl, and grew up to be a different kind of woman, and I think part of that was due to knowing that I was not a boy and could never become one, so I'd better get on with forging a life for myself as a female... no preferred pronouns at school, no PBs, no 'literal genocide', no 'gender affirming surgery', no 'most marginalised', no alternative but to sort myself out.

I was lucky.

Is it psychosis...?

The key question here is where is the threshold between someone doing something as a result of a firmly held belief and a delusion? Many (most? all?) children and young people who experience gender dysphoria start from a position of belief that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex. That everyone has an inner gendered soul. This belief in gendered souls can be firmly held to be true, similar to someone having a belief that god/Allah (etc) exists.

My understanding of psychosis is that it requires delusion. Using religion as an analogy, it's not considered delusional to believe that god/Allah exists. However, it likely would be considered delusional to claim that the reason you [insert an action that leads to harm] was because god/Allah requires it. But does that mean it's psychosis? Not necessarily.

was a vulnerable child indoctrinated by authority figures into an unscientific cult at a young age and is now having to live with the consequences?

This seems more of a fit than psychosis. The belief in gender identity is the foundation. The desire is to change the body to match the belief, even where it leads to harm is delusional. But it's not psychosis if the delusion was enabled by the adults that the child trusted, including so-called medical experts. The closest fit is that of cult thinking writ large.

I think it's the later and as they still appear vulnerable I can't help having sympathy for them.

Agreed. Unfortunately the Great Pronoun Debate will never be solved. After previously using preferred pronouns for adults (never children), I now avoid pronouns completely. I don't want to upset vulnerable children and young adults by using sex-based pronouns but equally, I'm not going to use words that show my allegiance to a belief I don't hold.

When I use my zero-pronoun approach both IRL and online, it seems to go unnoticed, which is exactly what I'm aiming for. When I call it out as an approach that I take, it causes upset.... gender identity believers are offended that I won't use preferred pronouns and many "GC" people tell me that I'm gaslighting myself and/or offending them by implying that their sex-based pronouns approach isn't "respectful". In other words, I can't win 🙃

The normal range of puberty for boys is 9-14 & girls is 8-13 so no eight year old girl is going to be prescribed PBs while an eight year old boy might be given them for one year.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/

Is it psychosis or was a vulnerable child indoctrinated by authority figures into an unscientific cult at a young age and is now having to live with the consequences.

I think it's the later and as they still appear vulnerable I can't help having sympathy for them.

Is it really kind to support his psychosis through bending language, though?

I have yet to watch the KB but I found this article at the weekend after watching a video from Steve (Edge of the Matrix) about a conversation he had in Islington. There a woman on the street repeated again and again that if puberty blockers were safe for precocious puberty that they were safe for trans kids. In the film Steve said that there were legal cases in the US and that they weren't safe... the woman ignored him but I tried looking it up.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Lupron - widely prescribed off label used in the past for precocious puberty or to help short kids grow taller. The article mentions many musculo skeletal problems and seizures. Not exactly sounding "safe"

This is what happened to KB and what GMB and Ed Balls think should be encouraged? What is wrong with these people?

I know this is not a thread about puberty blockers but I think we should begin using a more factual description so that "commentators" can't hide behind semantics: "chemical castration of children" seems more appropriate than "puberty blocked"?

Thank you. I've now watched it.

And to answer your question her health now was not mentioned.

Indeed. Quite the oversight from the interviewers, given that's the key issue at stake here.

Instead, Stephanie Lynette was simply given a platform to evangelise how great both PBs and cross-sex hormones are. Obviously it was an interview that was specifically there to balance the one from Keira Bell the previous day... but still. "Have you had any health issues relating to these powerful drugs and if so, what were they?" is the most obvious question that should have been asked.

Also, SL wasn't challenged on the misinformation about PBs "on-label" use. According to SL the minimum age for giving a child PBs for precocious puberty is 8. Not true. If a 2 or 3 year old starts puberty, they are put on PBs. 8 would be considered early to start puberty but it's far more likely that the child would just be left without medical intervention, as the benefits of delaying puberty from 8 would not outweigh the known impacts of long term PB usage.

Though Lynette does post social media content that makes light of health and medical issues and puts such a jolly face on things that it encourages others down that pathway too. There was no honesty about what cross sex hormones have done to them...or the fact that the vast majority of children who are on PBs then go on to cross sex hormones.

Nobody watching that show would go away with any awareness of the medical and health risks involved in 'transition'.

I wouldn't want to as I believe that Stephanie Lynette is as much of a victim of gender ideology as Keira is.

Maybe one day she will realise she could have taken a different path and her life would have been much better if she had but that will only happen by conversations with 'our side' not complaints to GMB.

Would you link and send that you tube to the programme makers with a complaint about their one sided journalism in not bringing this up?

I saw someone's twitter the other day from an adult in the process of transitioning. They are in their early twenties and from what I can tell have fast tracked their transition.

His comment was "Why would doctors perscribe hormones if there was a better way to deal with gender dysphoria?"

It breaks my heart. The level of trust here is alarming. Especially in the context of knowing the scandal of detransitioners now coming through who were treated in the Tavistock.

The point is he trusts these doctors and thinks they are infalliable - despite there being zero evidence of it actually being clinically appropriate or safe. Indeed we know there is evidence being withheld deliberately. And we know medical scandals involving big pharma are not without precident.

It seems like he is so unbelievably naive and trusting that anyone could do something involving drugs which could be motivated by money, by sex or by any other nefarious motivation that doesn't centre the wellbeing of the trans person concerned.

To get to your early 20s this untouched by reality and the possibility of unscrupulous individuals and still be this trusting is just alien to me. Maybe this says something of my life but I find it so hard to believe even then - the whole point is the level of waking up and realising the world isn't so nice for so many teenage girls.

Of course this level of naivity is part of black and white thinking. Its part of immaturity and its part of a lack of awareness of the world.

As someone who really mistrusts HCP and never treat them as infalliable because of so many recognised abuses of power and malpractice I find it bewildering.

I can't help but fear, he and so many of his peers who were sucked into this cult, will one day wake up and realise they were lied to. Or defend this until the end when the evidence does come that these drugs do harm and they were lied to precisely because the alternative is to wake up and realise how much self harm you have gone through seeking the magic bullet solution rather than taking the harder routes of councilling that take a lot longer. Then what?

Lindsay Watson is currently having a meltdown about the prospect of children not being medicalised. In part no doubt because it starts to chip at the legitimacy of adults being medicated. If it is indeed found these drugs do just harm and are no more than a placebo at best, its going to raise a hell of a lot of issues. These men and women essentially will become recognised as NHS funded junkies addicted to these drugs. Then what?

Its all so frightening and heart breaking.

Just watched! Very superficial and courteous....not asking about side effects, or current health status. Taking Lynette's word for the claim that they ( PBs) are 'reversible' etc.

And the comments on instagram (759 at this point):

Completely reversible
Given to precocious puberty patients for years
Stops suicide
Born wrong body

Stephanie Lynette was on GMB this morning at around 7:30 so can be found on catch-up.

And to answer your question her health now was not mentioned.

Thank you for sharing this OP. I was able to guess the time stamp on catch-up (rather than wading through 3 hours of GMB 😬) based on the timing of your post.

A genuinely fascinating interview. I'm very glad that Keira brought up cognitive impairment as the first issue. You'd think the decades-long lobotomy scandal would have been enough to stop doctors from causing brain damage in children and calling it "treatment". But no.

I'd be interested in watching the Stephanie Lynette interview. Did anyone see it? If so, at roughly what time was it during the programme?

if having had multiple issues with blood clots and then a stroke at age 26 is considered a succesful life -saving outcome, I'm not quite sure what to say?

Quite. Hopefully Stephanie was asked about all these "positive" experiences.

Just watched a few snippets of Lynette's you tube videos. Everything is presented in a jaunty way as if if everything is wonderful and really quite easy.
But if having had multiple issues with blood clots and then a stroke at age 26 is considered a succesful life -saving outcome, I'm not quite sure what to say?

Is anyone on twitter who can counter the alternative narrative put forward by Ed Balls and GMB that puberty blockers and cross hormones can simply be a life saving walk in the park....without any damaging side effects?

Just watched that! Ed Balls and the editorial team of the show determined to counter Keira's experience - by tomorrow presenting someone for whom puberty blockers apparently saved their life. ( Stephanie Lynette).

Surely the question is, Lynette may well have resolved their emotional difficulties without having puberty blocked, and now they'll never know.

Yes if you go on ITVX you can watch it on there though you will have to sit through a few adverts.

I missed this. Is there anywhere to watch it on catch-up?

During that interview Ed Balls read a quote from a transwoman, Stephanie Lynette, who said that PBs saved her life.

Stephanie Lynette has a Youtube channel where she has talked about her mental health difficulties, her post operative complications and depression following SRS, her relationship problems, the recurrent blood clots caused by cross sex hormones and the estrogen induced stroke she had at only 26 years old.

I don't know how anyone could think Stephanie's life is a success story.

(Yes I know I've used incorrect pronouns above, it's just me being kind because I feel desperately sad for them)