Men who affirm TW

Theres a clip going round of Joe Rogan telling Steve O men shouldn't be in women spaces. Rogan has daughters and understands sports, it makes sense that he speaks up.

But even then, he said that some men were genuine. He has interviewed a comic with his male 'wife'. They all acknowledged that this man wasn't female, but were all happy to see him as not a man and call him 'she/her'. And listening to them it was obvious they were motivated by porn.

That's the male privilege, the boundary can be placed somewhere that still changes the meaning of women.

The segments of the left who are not utilitarian are actually liberals identifying as left.

The issue is that they're only starting from that premise because they haven't thought about it. They've lazily accepted some bullshit they've been told.

We can't take that as a 'starting point'. We need the starting point to be one based on fact.

A HUGE issue here is that these men fundamentally don't want to engage, beyond trotting out some nonsense that makes them feel virtuous in the moment.

Prioritising 1% of the population over 50% is a stark deviation from this, and I've yet to hear a left wing person who supports TI square this circle

That's a utilitarian argument and not all segments of the left are utilitarian.

I'm not saying their argument is correct or supported by evidence, only that their position make sense if you start from the premise that trans people are the most marginalized in society. I personally don't start from that premise, although I do think trans people face a lot of discrimination in society.

Any boundaries is proof that we dont believe, and one of those boundaries is women only spaces.

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Women oppress men because we stop them following girls into swimming pool changing rooms.

Women oppress men because we reject gender as the definition of our sex.

I know their arguments, they feel better presenting as the opposite sex. But that isnt enough. We need to acknowledge that they are their preferred sex. Any boundary is proof that we dont believe, and one of those boundaries is women only spaces.

I am left wing and GC.
You are quite correct that the left wing support for TI is rooted in the principle of fighting oppression. However, I would question whether it is 'intelligent' to simply accept the statement that a subset of men are 'the most oppressed' group in our society. Because its not supported by logic or evidence.
Even if we accept that being trans predisposes a person to discrimination and marginalisation, trans people have recieved disproportionate levels of support and targeted inclusivity measures far in excess of the size of the population they represent. The institutions in our society have embraced their cause and introduced accommodations for them that marginalised groups could only dream of.
Also, importantly, the accommodations they desire directly impose on women.
The Left not only concerns itself with oppression from an ethical position, but also because of a perspective of what is considered most functional for society. The greater good. Prioritising 1% of the population over 50% is a stark deviation from this, and I've yet to hear a left wing person who supports TI square this circle, other than repeating but TW are W. Which is where for me the intellectual element breaks down.

There are a lot of myths around trans that seem feasible at first glance, but dont hold up to any scrutiny. And because a lot of men dont want to, or dont need to, think too hard about it assume the myths are true. Especially when women repeat them.

There's the idea of 'intersex' people being between and of both sexes naturally. Therefore trans people become intersex, and should be treated as the sex they are not. But that misinterprets what DSD are, and forces trans onto an unrelated medical condition.

The idea that we've always accepted men into womens spaces, because we know genuine trans. But if that was the case, we wouldn't need trans inclusive signs to be put up in women toilets or trans awareness.

There are a lot of compromises that seem reasonable at first, but unworkable. Trans inclusive women only spaces cannot happen, because there has to be a reason to exclude men for the women space to exist. Adding men back into the group negates the reason for the women only group.

The reliance of the passing trans is very odd. Im not saying it never happens, but so what? The idea that some men pass as women, therefore they have a right to be in women spaces, and because they have the right, all men do?

Again, its reinterpretating the reason why women spaces are allowed to exist. Men transgressing boundaries is one of the reason women only spaces are needed in the first place. Announcing they are going to use the space anyway, is not a winning argument to get rid of womens spaces.

I think a huge amount of this is about men being uncomfortable with men who like to cross dress and are happy to make that a problem for women to deal with.

I don't think they've thought about it very much. That's mostly because they don't want to.

People dismissing pro-trans arguments as just being about hating women or "being thick" don't really understand the crux of the issue. And if we are to fight their arguments, we have to first understand them rather than dismiss them as being just stupidity or lack of education.
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we do understand them. They're just total bollocks. In fact the reason we've been so successful with court cases is because unlike TRA we've taken the time to understand their arguments. They've never done the same for our view point also known as reality. The only way to be a woman is to be born a juvenile human female and grow into an adult one. Everything else, everything, is irrelevant. Wear DMs or stilettos or trainers, short or long hair or no hair! A full face of make up or none. Be a builder or a ballet dancer or a lorry driver or a teacher. Have children or not. None of those things make you a woman or not a woman

Do men oppress women - yes
women oppress TW - no

TW are men. The reason this ludicrous ideology has gained so much traction is because institutions/ the establishment/ the media is patriarchal and sexist. They know exactly who the women are which is why they've lined up behind TW - because they know they're men

When you compare oppression/persecution, trans people sit at the top, which is why there is a moral obligation to fight for their rights

I appreciate that this is the argument, but it is completely baseless. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that men (however they dress) are more oppressed than women.

Saying TWAW is a normative statement designed to help the community

I see what you are saying here, but at least on some level it has to be acknowledged that this statement is completely false and therefore a complete dead end when it comes to building an argument.

Where does that get us? The entire justification of 'we have a logical point' is based on suppositions that are obviously not true. So how are we all supposed to deal with that?

I'm not left wing nor am I pro-trans but I can nevertheless understand the thought process of the pro-trans movement. There is logic to it even if you disagree with it. To them society is about oppression. Men oppress women, and women oppress transwomen. When you compare oppression/persecution, trans people sit at the top, which is why there is a moral obligation to fight for their rights over all other groups. Saying TWAW is a normative statement designed to help the community (not because the person actually believes it).

People dismissing pro-trans arguments as just being about hating women or "being thick" don't really understand the crux of the issue. And if we are to fight their arguments, we have to first understand them rather than dismiss them as being just stupidity or lack of education.

I take the point that some of these men are a bit thick; however, a friend of mine is highly educated and intelligent yet believes TW are a "type" of woman, that they really reeeeeally believe it deep down and thus deserve to be treated as a woman. I've drilled down into this many times, believe me! But it all seems to hang on TW's depth of feeling. We've seen that argued on here too.

Women are not a feeling.

What is interesting is that some people genuinely think that male people ‘pass’ enough to never have their correct sex identified. I guess some people cannot tell and believe this is the universal experience.

What is clear hypocrisy though is that apparently, we are to take anecdotal assertions to disprove that some people can reliably correctly identify people’s sex. Yet, MoJ statistics are to be disbelieved …“Single examples are overblown.”

We've been debating every point made in this post for years, pity you paid no attention to any of it.

I think that's part of it, but also lefty men think how virtuous they are because they aren't racist, disablist and consider the "common man" so much they don't notice their own sexism. And they're men, being considerate to a load of men.

Of course you won’t be debating any of your points because none of them stand up with even the slightest amount of scrutiny. Like if genitals are not of any importance regarding gender then why are people having surgery to change their genitals and bodies for example.

Of course you aren’t debating it 😂

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit thick, haven't considered all the issues the trans ideology raises and are predominantly left leaning types who subscribe to virtue signaling.

This is also my view. I have not really met many men that fall into this group, the majority seem somewhat distanced but overall not all that supportive, and some are very much against it whether or not they keep it to themselves.

But the Billy Bragg types, some of the people I've met in the arts, they seem to be really invested in a kind of preformative virtue, and couldn't form a coherent argument of any kind on any subject. They are typically the kind of people who will only read The GUardian.

I won't be debating any of my points. I wanted to offer my perspective since these discussions are always dominated by a single POV

What you’re demanding is total control of the language used to define a woman. .
Tell your friends that they’ll always be inferior to the genuine holders of that label.

GC would like to exclude TW from ALL things for women. I won't ever agree with that because above all, they are human and deserve to have their needs taken into consideration.

Of course we do. TW are men and TW haven’t changed their sex. You even acknowledge that. Yet you want women to accept these men in women’s spaces?
Do you seriously believe that makes any sense?

Humans can’t change sex.

End of discussion.

Sex: male, female, intersex. Gender: Cis man, Cis woman, non binary, transman, transwoman

So @helenwaspushed which of those genders do you believe to "align" with the female sex, and why?

This is just from mulling it over to myself but I always assumed it was because of the historical link between the left/Labour party to the trades union movement; trade unions often being very misogynistic traditionally. It’s all about protecting workers’ rights and those rights were, at the inception of the movement, male. And their rights needed to be protected from women amongst others. For example male workers did not take kindly to women being “in their jobs” after WWI. Women holding the fort while men were at the front. They were a threat to their livelihood.

I know it was a long time ago but I think it’s a cultural hangover. And working class men are often culturally very old fashioned.

Anyone, I digress from the thread.

I know several trans people sexual assault/rape survivors the mental and physical health implications of not receiving proper treatment being able to guarantee single sex spaces can be great. GC people trans allies seem unconcerned with this entirely and just want trans people vulnerable women to conform to their own desires. Their health will continue to be a concern for those of us with friends and family going through it. Right now, transition single sex counceling is the most effective treatment but thanks to the trans lobby that isn't an option in many places.

Most GC women started from a position of compromise and what's the harm in .... but we realised that there is no compromise, no where that we are allowed to draw the line. If we call the man in a dress 'she' to be polite/kind he will leverage that as 'proof' that he is a woman and so should be treated as one in every regard, there is no this far and no further, it has to be prisons and rape crisis centres. There is no this is the mixed group and this is the womens/females/ladies/not penis having (whatever the word we are allowed to have to define biologically female humans is) group anything that is for women is either colonised or destroyed.

I don't want trans women to have no spaces or services, I just don't want them to have the spaces and services that are for women and girls. They can use men's services and spaces or they can create trans services and spaces but they can't take the things that belong to women. Women fought for their rights, they formed groups and services away from men. If Transwomen want the same it is on them to create them or get their allies to do it for them but they need to stay out of the spaces for women because as soon as you let in one man you let in any man.

What a load of old bollocks. You couldn’t debate that if even if you did decide to try.

Back to the OP. I think PP have covered all the reasons. It’s an opportunity for some men to get the pitchforks out and pat themselves on the back whilst doing it.

Women are conditioned from birth and by
many religions to be martyrs - to prioritise every other human being over themselves.

I hate little girls being told to ‘be kind’. Sod that. Teach them first to ‘Be safe, be happy!’

Women are regarded as service animals, rather than human beings with the same inalienable human right as men to the pursuit of ( individual) health and happiness.

Look at all the stories here of families maintaining relationships with the ex who abused their daughter, sister, even a child of the family. The male and his appetites must be appeased and supported.

Look at the schools, mental institutions etc using women to manage or soften male behaviour.

Look at the women who lack the self esteem, sense of self preservation or natural human instinct to get angry with and cease loving the men who abuse them.