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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Enby they/them pronouns - what's the law on this?

390 replies

SirChenjins · 03/03/2026 10:08

New person coming into my team who I think may want others to use they/them. I have a standard team signature that I don't want altered, but if my suspicions are correct and she starts bringing her whole enby self to work, where do we stand legally if I or anyone else says nope, not doing that?

I know the moral arguments on each side of the debate so don't want a rehash of the for's and against's, just want to know where I stand in law .

OP posts:
SirChenjins · 03/03/2026 18:26

Ohyeahitsme · 03/03/2026 18:19

Yes, there needs to be a comfortable middle ground which respects everyone.

For example, my right to believe in Christianity, talk about the church activities I've been to or am going to is protected but it doesn't mean I can go around telling my coworkers they are going hell, regardless of whether the reasons I assert are covered in law or not!

Well quite. I know that some Christians truly believe that their God is the only true God, but I think (although I could be mistaken) that any workplace that required staff to align their beliefs with that would be operating outside of the law.

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 18:22

I feel like I missed a trick by saying “thanks” to the devout Christian who said her church would pray for my sick son, rather than “you know religion is the mark of a feeble mind, right?”

Ohyeahitsme · 03/03/2026 18:22

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 18:19

Yes the woman in question can believe that she doesn't have a sex but she cant compelle others to agree with her or demand they use her chosen pronouns that would be bullying and harassment along with direct beliefs discrimination and a breach of the other person's article 9&10 human rights. She will just have to get used to her name being used in lue of her chosen pronouns.

Or alternatively, she can be fully aware that she has a sex but doesn't feel aligned to gender expression of that sex and chooses to use language about herself which reflects that. We don't know. And ultimately it doesn't matter, as long as she does her job and allows others to do theirs in a working environment conducive to all.

Ohyeahitsme · 03/03/2026 18:19

SirChenjins · 03/03/2026 15:38

GC beliefs are protected in law - but from what I've gleaned on here, the use of pronouns are not covered by law. Remember grievances can also be raised by staff who feel their rights philosophical beliefs are not being upheld - which, as I've said, is why I want to make sure everyone is aware of their rights and no-one feels excluded. There will be a compromise that will suit everyone - staff could use avoid they/them and use her name for example, which seems reasonable.

Yes, there needs to be a comfortable middle ground which respects everyone.

For example, my right to believe in Christianity, talk about the church activities I've been to or am going to is protected but it doesn't mean I can go around telling my coworkers they are going hell, regardless of whether the reasons I assert are covered in law or not!

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 18:19

Rhubarbandcustardd · 03/03/2026 15:51

I’m totally aware - you can believe what you like but it CANNOT be used to harass others - of which it would be if you refuse to use pronouns and cause harm

Yes the woman in question can believe that she doesn't have a sex but she cant compelle others to agree with her or demand they use her chosen pronouns that would be bullying and harassment along with direct beliefs discrimination and a breach of the other person's article 9&10 human rights. She will just have to get used to her name being used in lue of her chosen pronouns.

SirChenjins · 03/03/2026 18:18

KimTheresPeopleThatAreDying · 03/03/2026 18:16

Not sure why it’s so hard for you/your team to respect this person’s wishes (if, indeed, those are their wishes - see, wasn’t so hard to say their, was it?).

Respect, tolerance and understanding works both ways - one protected characteristic doesn't trump another.

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 18:18

LovelyCrocus · 03/03/2026 18:14

Remember we’re talking about a situation where Jane has specified her wish to be referred to in the plural.

If the name or sex of the individual is unknown then it is perfectly acceptable to use the plural form. For a single individual whose name and sex is known, referring to them in the plural is peculiar. Introducing that person in the plural to another who may not be aware of Jane’s delusion about not being female, just makes it sound as though you can’t construct a sentence properly.

And if Jane was overweight I’d consider it downright rude of you.

Edited

“If the name or sex of the individual is unknown then it is perfectly acceptable to use the plural form.”

Why? If the claim is using the plural form for an individual is bad grammar or confusing or difficult or whatever, why is it suddenly ok to use the plural form for an individual in the circumstances you outline? How is it suddenly ok to combine plural verb forms with a pronoun referring to just one person?

KimTheresPeopleThatAreDying · 03/03/2026 18:16

Not sure why it’s so hard for you/your team to respect this person’s wishes (if, indeed, those are their wishes - see, wasn’t so hard to say their, was it?).

LovelyCrocus · 03/03/2026 18:14

BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 18:06

Secret option 4 - “”

Literally what most people would think.

People use and hear they/them/their used in the singular every day. They manage not to spend hours looking for all the ‘others’ being referred to.

Remember we’re talking about a situation where Jane has specified her wish to be referred to in the plural.

If the name or sex of the individual is unknown then it is perfectly acceptable to use the plural form. For a single individual whose name and sex is known, referring to them in the plural is peculiar. Introducing that person in the plural to another who may not be aware of Jane’s delusion about not being female, just makes it sound as though you can’t construct a sentence properly.

And if Jane was overweight I’d consider it downright rude of you.

Ronnyfrau · 03/03/2026 18:12

I had this for someone who had left my workplace permanently - enby ally correction when the person wasn't even on the same land mass as me

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 18:11

Rhubarbandcustardd · 03/03/2026 15:41

This is a common misconception and wrongly interpreted all the time

gender critical beliefs are in no way protected by law - huge misconception

you will need to adhere to what person wants - it’s not up to you and your team to decide what you will and won’t do

if you don’t it’s harassment - as shown above

Again wrong the forstater appeal tribunal found that they are covered by the equality act.
You really are making a fool of yourself as even if they weren't lack of belief in gender ideology is protected under both the equality act and the human rights act. Furthermore compelled speach and forced religious observance are prohibited under the human rights act.
So no nobody has to use preferred pronouns

MyAmpleSheep · 03/03/2026 18:11

IwantToRetire · 03/03/2026 18:01

Have just seen this from ACAS:

As an employer, you cannot force an employee to use someone's new pronouns. However, you can expect them not to use the old pronouns.

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination/preventing-discrimination

But they have added a note saying that since the Supreme Court ruling they may have to change their advice!

It also says about toilets:

Everyone at work should be able to use facilities they feel comfortable with. Making a transgender employee use facilities they're not comfortable with could be discrimination.

So might need some updating throughout.

SwirlyGates · 03/03/2026 18:10

BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 15:51

”Jane told me to set up the meeting. I asked who to invite and was told to invite the whole team. Jane wants to do the introduction and also field the questions at the end. I don’t think Jane has done this before, but it's good to see someone stepping up to the plate like this.”

Really not that difficult. (Although most people would probably just throw a couple of 'theys' or 'thems' in without having the vapours)

It really is difficult actually. It means rephrasing sentences that would come naturally to you. In writing this is simply extra effort and time, but in speech it is very difficult to avoid pronouns.

Of course you need to avoid using correct-sex pronouns not just in the person's presence, but when they aren't even there, as otherwise you risk a manager, an HR person or just some random enby-ally dobbing you in for using the wrong pronouns. And if you use the wrong-sex pronouns it is, for many of us including me, a head-fuck.

MyAmpleSheep · 03/03/2026 18:08

Rhubarbandcustardd · 03/03/2026 15:37

You will have someone in your team feeling excluded if you carry on

Inclusion means people with protected characteristics are included not people who are already in positions of power sociologically

you have taken a “side” and are assuming your team will be uncomfortable whereas it’s you that are uncomfortable

why don’t you just give it a whirl - you might learn something

people who are already in positions of power sociologically

Punching up is ok, neh?

Ronnyfrau · 03/03/2026 18:07

Rhubarbandcustardd · 03/03/2026 16:23

Its clear harassment if employee has asked to be supported in using their preferred pronouns

philosophical beliefs are only protected when they are not harming others - that part is really clear

That's nonsense

BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 18:06

LovelyCrocus · 03/03/2026 17:58

When presenting one person to another but using a plural form for the introduction:

  • There are multiple Janes, this is one of them
  • There is one Jane who believes she is more than one person
  • The introducer needs a grammar lesson

Secret option 4 - “”

Literally what most people would think.

People use and hear they/them/their used in the singular every day. They manage not to spend hours looking for all the ‘others’ being referred to.

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 18:05

Rhubarbandcustardd · 03/03/2026 15:37

You will have someone in your team feeling excluded if you carry on

Inclusion means people with protected characteristics are included not people who are already in positions of power sociologically

you have taken a “side” and are assuming your team will be uncomfortable whereas it’s you that are uncomfortable

why don’t you just give it a whirl - you might learn something

Inclusions doesn't mean the Included person gets to enforce their religious beliefs on anyone else or demand that others participate in said religion. Its about reasonable adjustments which in this case would mean using no pronouns.
This may upset the nb or trans person but thats tough luck because other people have rights too

MyAmpleSheep · 03/03/2026 18:02

WheretheFishesareFrightening · 03/03/2026 16:38

I find these threads fascinating. I work with a lot of Countesses, Ladies, Baronnesses and other titled gentry. There is not a world where I would call any of them she or her, it’d be a true faux pas along the lines of “who’s she, the cat’s mother”. It’s incredibly easily to drop out any use of pronouns if you are trying to be polite, so this seems to be the most obvious way forward. It can’t be illegal to avoid using a word, it’s not like you’d be using a non preferred word.

I'm curious: His/Her Majesty, His/Her Highness, His/Her Grace, his Lorsdhip/her Ladyship - these are the polite ways to refer to titled people in the third person. All gendered. I don't see how this helps avoid gendering someone.

IwantToRetire · 03/03/2026 18:01

Have just seen this from ACAS:

As an employer, you cannot force an employee to use someone's new pronouns. However, you can expect them not to use the old pronouns.

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination/preventing-discrimination

But they have added a note saying that since the Supreme Court ruling they may have to change their advice!

BreatheAndFocus · 03/03/2026 18:01

It hurts literally no one if they want to identify as non binary, and is so easy to do. Don’t be that person

Totally wrong! Demanding special pronouns means people walk on eggshells around you, having to check themselves every time they speak. More than that, it carries an implication of “I’m special and not like other girls/women’, and it makes people subscribe to a regressive belief about ‘boy things’ and ‘girl things’ - stupid gender stereotypes I thought we’d ditched decades ago.

It also implies that everybody else - the non non-binaries, if you will - fulfil all the stereotypes associated with their sex.

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 17:58

Ohyeahitsme · 03/03/2026 15:29

Yes, what I'm saying is that grievances can be brought against things which aren't covered explicitly by a law. So whilst legally the employee cannot compel colleagues to use preferred pronouns, they could bring grievances against them, and win. This could potentially result in a company policy around use of preferred pronouns, because conversely, there is no law which protects gender critical beliefs and refusal to use pronouns. The law is neither your friend nor your enemy in this situation!

Actually gender critical beliefs are protected under the characteristic of religion and belief. Also being forced to participate in someone else's religion is against your human rights(article 9) and so is someone attempting to compelle someone else's speach(article10).
Any policies that demand you comply with compelled speach would be illegal discrimination on multiple grounds.
What an employer can ask is that you refrain from using any pronouns and use the person's name only

LovelyCrocus · 03/03/2026 17:58

BackToLurk · 03/03/2026 17:45

Again, in the real world, you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who heard ”This is Jane, they are starting on Monday,” and thought “Oh my god. What could this mean? There must be multiple Janes”.

When presenting one person to another but using a plural form for the introduction:

  • There are multiple Janes, this is one of them
  • There is one Jane who believes she is more than one person
  • The introducer needs a grammar lesson
RichardMarxisinnocent · 03/03/2026 17:58

Hoardasurass · 03/03/2026 13:18

'"No, they hasn't been about since I got here"
Is again grammatical incorrect.
The correct response would be
Sorry no I haven't seen the receptionist.
This sort of basic grammar used to be taught in primary school and if you can't recognise the way you are twisting it thats a you problem

Surely you'd just say "sorry no I haven't seen them" rather than repeating "the receptionist"? If the question was "have you seen Lisa?" you wouldn't reply, "sorry I haven't seen Lisa" would you? You'd say "sorry I haven't seen her".

SirChenjins · 03/03/2026 17:48

godmum56 · 03/03/2026 17:36

If "jane" is not there, she will not know what pronoun is used. I am not sure that using "you" as a third person pronoun will work. As has been said its very easy to avoid using a pronoun about someone in their presence, in fact it used to be considered rude to do so. Not sure why "you" is any dfferent from "they" Its also open to stupid misunderstanding
"Has anyone seen Jane?"
"Yes you've just popped to the loo"

Just reread my post and I agree it wasn't clear - you etc in her presence, which is normal speech. So, her name in her absence or in conversation if she's present, or the usual you etc in her presence which is just normal speech. Or something else (I'm open to her thoughts) that recognises that people may not feel comfortable using they/them but also wanting to avoid her feeling uncomfortable. Ultimately operating within the law for all.

OP posts:
MyAmpleSheep · 03/03/2026 17:47

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/03/2026 15:49

He wasn’t “non binary” he was a bog standard TIM. That’s why he called himself Rose and used she/her. “Non binary” gender identity in terms of people who don’t think they have a “gender” was never intended to be included within “gender reassignment”. There have been many threads here discussing this case in detail.

I don't remember the threads but the tribunal said at 178:

We thought it was very clear that Parliament intended gender reassignment to be a spectrum moving away from birth sex, and that a person could be at any point on that spectrum. That would be so, whether they described themselves as “non-binary” i.e. not at point A or point Z, “gender fluid” i.e. at different places between point A and point Z at different times, or “transitioning” i.e. moving from point A, but not necessarily ending at point Z, where A and Z are biological sex. We concluded that it was beyond any doubt that somebody in the situation of the Claimant was (and is) protected by the legislation because they are on that spectrum and they are on a journey which will not be the same in any two cases. It will end up where it does. The wording of section 7(1) accommodates that interpretation without any violence to the statutory language Consequently, there is jurisdiction to hear the gender reassignment claim.

It was only a first-level ET so not a precedent, but that seems pretty clear to me that the Judge wasn't very concerned about the details and confident that someone who doesn't identify as their biological sex is protected under the PC of GR, regardless.

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