Clinics forced to share data on children who took PBs .. at last

Well if it’s Bristol I imagine that data will be very interesting

I’ll see what I can do. I knew where the charity used to be based in bristol. Foi good idea

I'm aware of two adolescent girls (under 16) within my daughter's social sphere who are planning to take testosterone when they can.

One is at school, the other at an external girls-only sports club.

The school one is a female child who is autistic and joined the school a while ago (from a different school), having already started using he/him pronouns. Everyone is coercively encouraged to use these preferred pronouns because it's apparently the best way to be kind and respectful. The school is not interested in how this child - or any others who have socially transitioned there - is at risk. Apparently the parents are on board so all is fine. Yes, I've tried respectfully suggesting that the parents may well be acting on misinformation etc etc. Thankfully, my daughter told me about the conversation, held out loud with other students present, and was as concerned as I was about the child not fully understanding the impact of taking testosterone. The child is in year 10, so hopefully a year away from being old enough to take it - and hopefully this scandal will have had more exposure by then. Unfortunately, the school has zero interest in looking at this as a safeguarding issue (instead, they are managing me as an issue for asking them to follow the existing KCSIE guidance 🤦‍♀️) so all I can do is sit back and watch the shitshow unfold 😢

TBH, I'm more emotionally impacted by the girl in the sports club. This girl has been there since the age of about 10. I've watched the whole thing slowly unfolding and have avoided using pronouns (it's a weird open secret in the team that he/him pronouns are used) for a while. About 3 years ago, both this girl and my daughter were gender questioning at the same time. I was in research mode and was uncovering all sorts of info about the risks of social transition. At the time, the interim Cass Report (released in 2022) was available and I had started informing myself on the wider subject on MN. I asked the parents if they wanted me to share what I had found so far. They didn't, so I left it.

My daughter currently has no idea that her teammate might not be on the team next season. On a positive note, the child and parents obviously recognise that it would be inappropriate for a female taking testosterone to play on a girls' sports team, hence planning to pull out of the team. But I'm wrestling with my own conscience on what I do/say. Currently, I'm thinking that I'll wait to hear it "officially". At the moment, it's just a rumour passed from an adult who is with the club (who probably shouldn't really be discussing that kind of info with other parents... but who is baffled by it all, and sad at the potential of losing this talented player) so I'm not in a position to say anything. I need to wait for the info to be more widely known e.g. for the child to tell the other players. When I know about it via this route, I will probably share the Telegraph article (that Mrs O linked) with the parents. The night I heard about this being likely to happen, I cried. What a fucking mess this is. Children are being harmed for life and we're all getting a front row seat while it happens.

“The impact a bit of leaking has on these young people’s lives is huge. It really needs to be properly discussed within gender clinics because I would expect that almost 100 per cent of female people that take cross-sex hormones will end up with these problems,” she added, noting that the study was “robust” and probably underplayed the issue.
“It’s really sad when we hear people say, ‘nobody ever told me this’, and they should have been informed of the risks in gender clinics.”

Wow.

And the majority who take blockers go onto hormones.

These are women in their 20s.

Elaine Miller's written a lot about this hasn't she? Article in the Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/26/trans-problems-urinary-bowel-incontinent-young-detransition/

Archive link : https://archive.ph/qFwT9

Seriously. There's got to be more than one way to find out some of this data.

If you asked for % of people at incontinence clinic by cause of issue you might get somewhere. There no protection around GRC on this. And ask for change over time.

Taking it from a different angle might produce some data that asked bigger questions. After all one concern her has to be just how much this is costing the NHS and whether its a good use of resources. We just need to think about where to look.

There are plenty of medical issues the NHS won't fund because of cost effectiveness.

That sounds like a FOI request waiting to happen.

@VenusEnvyXX are you aware of this trend? xx

i hope they link to other areas not just the clinics. I knew someone who worked for a charity supporting those suffering from incontinence. Historically it used to be dominated by mothers with post birth issues. He said back in 2001 it was now being dominated by those who had undergone « gender affirming care ». The whole thing is a medical scandal

Exactly...and self perception is not the same thing as meaningful shared reality.

'Gender' is the term some people are using for personality expression or sexually driven preferences. It has no bearing on the reality of one's sex, and as you suggest people can recognise a person's sex even when they are preseenting their 'gender' self perception.

There is already a wealth of information available to be reviewed
and
it is overwhelmingly the 17 to 19 age group who are referred to the adult gender clinics, which raises the concern that this is not a persisting identity

These are crucial points. There is plenty of evidence already available from the children who have been used (abused, in my opinion) as guinea pigs in this appalling experiment.

No more children should be put through this.

The data linkage data is so crucial.

I’ve just had the chilling thought that the trial would have demonstrated what those short and longer term side effects were for the purposes of insurance companies too.

that creek has already happened with right to choose for adhd.

A friend, who I absolutely agree has struggled with adhd his whole life, finally got a diagnosis. Only to find that the nhs couldn’t support his prescription. He’d hope to try medication. He had to go back onto the anti depressants he was on. Which work and now he can look deeper at various cbt approaches that also work, but none of that experience has permanently damaged his body.

Thought experiment:
If you had puberty blockers how would that affect affect you in terms of what a private health care insurance company could potentially refuse to cover in terms of "preexisting issues"?

Given the growing trend of refusals is it possible that a whole host of side effects wouldn't be covered? Or you'd have extortionate fees.

This is something parents potentially aren't considering and frankly really should given the political climate and potential threats to the NHS as it stands.

I can see the possibility of a creek, that stinks, which people end up stuck in.

An aspect never discuss is how much has PB treated children cost the nhs in terms of after care for later side effects?

It has often been discussed that gender affirming care makes them life long patients- the nhs takes costs / benefits very seriously when weighing up whether to offer treatments.

For example, messing with cross sex hormones and pbs does appear to trigger hypothyroidism in some (a woman who used to post here about her experience with PBs for precocious puberty was affected and I’m sure a couple of detransitioned people have too.) That’s life long treatment and all prescriptions, for any other condition and illness, are free.

Jazz Jennings under hypnosis doing "Past Life Regression" in an attempt to cure over-eating and achieve weight loss - this is so sad.

Jazz: "I'm in like a town centre. It's a market. People are selling food. It's like a market."
Hypnotherapist: "What are you feeling or sensing being here?".

"Hungry."

"You're hungry. What's your name?"

"Cal."

"Cal. OK. What are you doing in this marketplace? Do you sense that you live nearby?"

"I don't have a home."

"You don't. OK"

"I don't think my family wants me."

"Why? What happened?"

"I'm gay."

"OK. You're gay."

"They caught me . . . with . . . a guy."

"What happened?"

"Kicked me out."

"Kicked you out. How did that make you feel?"

"Rejected. My dream, was to hold his hand, in this market. And now I'm just alone in the market. And I'm hungry, I haven't eaten."

"OK, just allow that to come up, I'm a right here with you. So we're gonna leave this scene and we're gonna drift and float forward to the last day of Cal's life. You're drifting and floating, floating and drifting and now, what's happening?"

"I'm sitting on a rocking chair. I was never able to live the life that I wanted. Don't wanna, I don't wanna do this."

"You don't wanna do what?"

"I don't wanna live any more."

"You don't want to. . . . So what was he hungry for that day in the market?"

"He was hungry - to be accepted."

"He was. What advice do you have for Jazz, that can help her? What's she hungry for?"

(Jazz crying)

"She's still hungry to be accepted."

"What advice can you give her? You have perspective of all. What can you tell her?"

"She's just, got it all (unintelligible) mixed up, that's what happens with emotions. We get mixed up. That's OK. That's OK."

"And now your spirit, you have full perspective of everything about that lifetime. When you're ready, and only when you're ready Jazz, one two three four five back to your regular waking consciousness, feeling good, feeling rested, feeling wonderful, all over."
(Jazz yawning/sighing.)

Jazz voiceover, recounting the experience, bright and breezy: "Coming out of the hypnosis feels like I travelled through another lifetime. I was definitely able to connect a few dots from my past life to my current life because there are a lot of underlying themes that are relevant to what I am going through now."

Video continues but it's late and I am tired of listening and transcribing now.

Should start 153s in:

s

This is a bit more upbeat. Jazz Jennings' 100lb weight loss. There are are loads of videos out there but all with annoying and sometimes very weird AI voice-overs so here is an article from April 2025 instead.

Jazz Jennings looks so different with chiseled cheekbones in new pics from life at Harvard after 100lb weight loss

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/14121265/jazz-jennings-cheekbones-harvard-100lb-weight-loss/

'Sex deniers'

I feel very sorry for poor Jazz Jennings who was at one point the feted poster child for this kind of cosmetically-driven, very early and permanently life-altering stop being made to the natural development of previously healthy children.

’Sex realist’ sounds fair enough. I think we should all be that. Sex is real. It’s not made up, a fantasy or a lie. The corresponding name for beliefs that hold an opposite view to ‘sex realist’ isn’t going to be very flattering for the TRA camp though…

They don’t seem to live happy lives, trans people seem to be very unhappy, with the misgendering, the relationship issues, the medical issues, the family issues, the outing, the work issues, it does not seem to be a path to lasting happiness.

their happiness seems to be awfully dependent on medical services prolonging their lifestyle choices and everyone they know and meet pretending about their identity.

Thankfully medical providers do not share your sex realist morality

Ah yes, who can forget trans poster child, Jazz Jennings. A teenage male who 'medical providers' gave the face of a girl, the body of a woman and the genitalia of a pre pubescent boy.

Which doctors tried to chop up to create a fake vagina which burst apparently. So they cut up part of his colon instead and televised his mother telling him off for not dilating it.

Jazz subsequently became depressed and obese.

And all because he wanted to wear a tutu when he was three.

One of those referenced links shows that the authors have published some wildly inaccurate information:

"Between 2012 and 2022 there were a total of 142 complaints made to the clinic, although the party making the complaint was not recorded.

The number of these where it was felt that gender affirming care was provided wrongly or inappropriately? All of eight. Over a 10-year period, for a clinic that could have up to 12,000 service users (p.9) at any given time."

The figure of up to "12,000 service users at any given time" in the 2018-2019 Annual Report linked in the article relates to an estimate of the number of service users of the whole Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust - not the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS).

According to the graph on page 16 it looks like GIDS saw over 2,500 children but less than 3,000 children in 2018-19 and approx 10,000 children over 5 years (2014-15 to 2018-19).

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Tavistock_and_Portman_NHS_Foundation_Trust_Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2018-19.pdf

The fact that GIDS patients accounted for between 20% and 25% of Tavistock and Portman patients seen in 2018-19 would explain why the NHS Trust was so protective of GIDS, eg. ignoring safeguarding concerns raised by multiple staff and Sonia Appleby, the Trust Safeguarding Lead.

That's a big chunk of its income as well as GIDS being a "flagship" national, specialist service, so danger of reputational damage if safeguarding concerns became public. Which of course they did at Sonia Appleby's Employment Tribunal:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6149eb48d3bf7f05ac396f79/Ms_S_Appleby__vs___Tavistock_and_Portman_NHS_Foundation_Trust.pdf

The majority of ex-trans (detransitioned) people started treatment as adults.

You don’t know this. No one does. No one knows how many people who were medically transitioned as children have detransitioned because no one has done any long term follow up. That’s the point. This data set will help figure that out. So you’d support that, right?

They, as far as I know, were not found to be mentally incompetent at any time in their lives

And children?

which meant they would have had to have been other-worldly insistent in their desire for treatment.

Which proves what?

The data already public show 1000s of enumerated trans people, hundreds who received treatment, hundreds who didn't receive treatment and a handful who state their treatment was a mistake.

The data we know about. We don’t know about thousands of former paediatric patients.

The data already show more than 99% of children and adolescents who begin blockers request gender-appropriate HRT.

Which demonstrates what? That it’s the right decision? How?

The data will show what the data show.

So let’s get it out then. If it shows ex paediatric patients are all happy, and fertile, and have good sex lives, and jobs and no brittle bones, then you’d support that right?

No one expects sex realists to change their beliefs should the data prove that people experience overwhelming satisfaction and live happy lives post-transition. Sex realist beliefs aren't based in science or data

You are literally arguing to stop sex realists from getting answers from science or data in favour of “we just know”. Literally, that is what you’re saying. Sex realists want data, you don’t. If science or data shows puberty blockers leads to “overwhelming satisfaction and happy lives post-transition” let’s see it. Why would you argue against science or data demonstrating that?

A fish called Wanda?

I enjoyed that film.

'Sex realist' reminds me of the joke Real Madrid 3, Surreal Madrid 🐟. Although I first heard that joke way before transgender was a thing, I think the punchline is quite prescient. Male, female, clownfish called OnepostWanda.