Row breaks out over event’s single sex policy: bbc

I don’t think after the SC judgment and EHRC guidance that single sex spaces can legally be cancelled any more. I may be wrong. Does anyone know?

Are you still being cancelled now?

Not sure why my post was removed, Maybe MNHQ didn’t like the link. Anyway, Sisters Heal are on the Inciteful Sisters podcast this week talking about being cancelled by venues.

Brilliant. Love this.

That’s inspired.

If only there were more HR departments and managers/CEO/owners etc like that, this could all be over by Xmas. 😂

I read this on X earlier - a trans woman complaining because a colleague refers to them as "my esteemed colleague" rather than using preferred pronouns. HR have said that's ok but trans woman is furious.

Like I said, I don’t agree with controlling other people’s language. If some want to avoid pronouns or refer to her as ‘him’ that’s their prerogative. I just would hope that the other women attending wouldn’t feel under pressure to do so and have to consciously moderate their own language to accommodate her.

There’s no need to upset someone with pronoun use, when you are in the same room with them. ‘You’ works fine.

And while some TiFs may pass, when they’ve chosen to out themselves to access support and are suffering from historical abuse, I can’t imagine any sense of them being male remains. No one can read that description of sex based abuse and maintain anxiety over the sex of the sufferer.

The TiF I know and love is very tall, and has had a full mastectomy. There’s still no way they pass, once you know. Maybe, if you didn’t know.

I’ve met one where you’d never know she wasn’t a man if she didn’t tell you. Not saying it’s common but it’s an eventuality that needs to be accounted for. I imagine the trans-identified woman in this case is early in transition or doesn’t ‘pass’ as a man.

I don’t imagine they will get many trans-identified women attending if they get correctly sexed pronouns. I can’t speak to socialisation but I’ve certainly seen some who physically ‘pass’ even if it’s uncommon. It’s less rare than it is for trans-identified men.

That poor young woman.

Transmen are so much less obvious and demanding than transwomen. And you can usually (always?) tell - jawline, height, hands, feet, the physical structure of the body.

With appearance, I’m in the camp that thinks women can always tell. The small hands, the neat little beard, and the name tag that says ‘Noah’ or ‘Kai’. Even though they’ve taken testosterone they don’t have that male aggression. The sense of entitlement and mansplaining tendencies just aren’t there as they’ve been socialised as female.

It would have to be made clear to any trans ID female that they may well get called she / her and that pronouns won’t be policed.

As a previous poster said, trans men are female and so much more aware of how their attendance could be triggering. Im not saying it would be easy but I think it can be done on the understanding that everyone in the room is female and shares that unique experience.

I think there is a significant difference from a woman who dresses masculinely and a woman who has taken testosterone and had surgery to give her the appearance of a man. The former is unlikely to be triggering, the latter very well could be.

I agree there are specific circumstances where it could work. It’s interesting you mention pronouns because I’ve noticed you seem to have made an effort to avoid referring to this woman as she/her or a woman. That’s your prerogative and I don’t believe in policing language, but would there not be an implicit pressure on women to go along with such convoluted avoidance of pronouns to avoid offending the trans-identified women? The whole thing is a minefield. The woman in her post was quite clear she sees herself as a ‘trans man’ so would she actually attend the group if other members used female pronouns for her?

Where do you draw the line though? I think if it’s a single sex org then biological sex is where it should be. Otherwise it becomes an org for women who present as feminine.

I think it is practical if the trans person is open about being female, the other women are made aware beforehand and there isn’t any pronouns nonsense

Sadly lots of studies have shown that the trans people that are subjected to sexual violence are overwhelmingly the female trans people.

Its not surprising they don’t want to be women.

Also, sexual abuse experienced by trans identified males is going to be very, very different. Not that it’s any less traumatic, just different. Being abused as a boy or as a male in a gay relationship isn’t something women are going to understand.

Pregnancy and birth following rape from your father isn’t something a man will ever be able to empathise with.

There is no sense in force teaming these survivors with very different needs.

I still do wonder how practical this kind of arrangement of single sex services is though. I think there is a high risk of women being triggered by male appearing women when they have a background of sexual violence. I also doubt many trans-identified women would want to attend as they are so determined to view themselves as men. Maybe she is quite early in 'transition' and still appears female. It seems to work in this one niche example but across the board I don't think it would.

It's hard to imagine this kind of abuse. Being raped by your own father and giving birth as a 13 year old girl. No wonder she grew to hate her female body. I wonder how many trans-identified women have a background of sexual abuse. I imagine it's high.

Of course. Women who have been through rape and sexual abuse will be able to empathise with the person who wrote that statement.

Instead women are expected to ‘be kind’ and empathise with men feeling turned on wearing women’s clothes.

I hope whoever wrote that statement is getting good support from Sisters Heal and elsewhere. It’s a horrific story.

That’s from the Reddit thread where she was harangued about her choice to work with them, I think. It was vile.

That is a moving statement. What horrific abuse.

I suspect feminists would feel empathy with the back stories of most women who decide to transition. It is such an obvious tell that mainstream transactivism is working for the patriarchy that it seeks to keep women apart. I think transactivists know all too well that transmen and women have so much more shared history than any woman has with a man who grew up with a homophobic father or a man who is turned on by stereotypically female clothing.