John Davison BAFTA Tourette’s incident and competing rights

Didn’t say the onus was 100% on the actors. Frankly, given that they were presenting, they should have had individual briefings to be prepared for anything to be shouted at them. This is on BAFTA and the BBC.

I’m saying they (and you) are wrong to blame the disabled person. His form of Tourette’s is one where his brain comes up with the most hurtful and inappropriate thing possible - and then shouts it out loud. He’s been attacked on the streets because of his disability and he’s been arrested because of it. He has no control over his outbursts.

The statement you want him to make is to say that this painful and hurtful disability has yet again caused pain and hurt. Why? So that Michael B Jordan and Delroy Lindo can recognise that John Davison understands the disability he’s had to live with all his life?

Yes, you have mentioned that BAFTA and the BBC are at fault (and that was your very first post). But for over half your posts you’ve been punching down. You have been insisting that the person who does not have agency over his speech recognise publicly… that his lack of agency causes people to suffer.

I'd disagree. You arrived asking if you were the only person who'd laughed because of how hilarious this all was. One of the few things people can probably agree on is that this isn't hilarious for anyone involved. But you seem to be enjoying being deliberately outrageous and then switching to 'give me reasons, this is how we reach a shared understanding' comments which frankly don't come across as authentic or credible. But I guess you've had a fun evening. I reached my 'not a serious person' point with it a while ago. As I said, though, you keep going. You're doing well at showing people what you are. Do the work for us!

I am though.

I admire your resilience @OtterlyAstounding

These people are not worthy of your time or energy.

Ahhhhhhh that explains everything!!!

carry on carry on, I had no idea you suffered from that issue.

Who is this terrible troll?

tell me their name and we can group report them.

Asking for a friend - if the guy who made the involuntary verbal tick, was not white, would that have been ok?

hypothetical question of course.

Great! Progress!

Considering people can literally see what I wrote you’re not coming out of this well.

go to bed.

Personally, while at first I thought perhaps, maybe, he should, now I don't. So you'd have to ask someone who does think that.

Because @OtterlyAstounding feels guilty and they’d like everyone to feel the same guilt I think.

That particular tic was triggered by the environment he was in.

If there was no intent and it was out of his control, why are people asking him to take responsibility?

Disappointing.

"You have said repeatedly that he shouldnt be allowed to and think of others."

I'm not quite sure what this means? And where have I said that? I suppose I may have said it shouldn't be allowed when I first heard about this issue, but I've read more on the topic, and it's not about 'allowing'. All a person who is uncomfortable can do is remove themselves from the situation, not expect him to be removed. I'm not sure what's wrong with being mindful of others too, though.

I haven't been saying that he is racist.

I don't disagree with any of the rest of what you say.

It's clear to see that you don't care about the blatant racism on this thread, though, which is disappointing.

There is a youtuber called sweet anita, she has both vocal and physical tics.

She has named her torrettes Terence she has done this as she considers her torrettes to take control.
Terance likes to say the worst thing at the most inappropriate moment.

But it worth looking her up on youtube, inparticular the streamer awards, both for the presenting of the award and for the red carpet interviews.

It may give those with little knowledge of torrettes a greater insite.

Other youtubers are available.

Read what I'm bloody saying. Your comments are tone deaf and upsetting.

I have made it clear that I know there is no control or intent.

But you seem to be trying to say that the fact that the tic was n--r has absolutely no relation to the fact that two black men were on stage whatsoever, and that it was a total coincidence the tic happened to be that word.

No. You have said repeatedly that he shouldnt be allowed to and think of others.

Well actually in that situation there's fuck all anyone can do. Retrospective stuff doesn't help. Saying we should reflect on whatever only serves as punishment.

It all has to be about preparation and awareness.

Continuing to push a narrative that even remotely suggests it's racist or he's behaving in a racist way is doing that.

The explanation is his brain is doing something independently of his thoughts and control. His brain is responding to social anxiety triggers and effectively acting them out. It's almost like he's doing the thing his brain understands to be the worst thing about that situation. It's blind to race because it will do the most offensive social thing for any given situation. In reality you could read that as being the opposite to be offensive. His brain simultaneously recognises the risk of the situation in terms of social anxiety and then plays it out.

Imagine having that dream where you take all your clothes off in public because you are anxious about something. But your brain makes you actually do it. It's kinda like that.

@RedToothBrushThank you so much for this. You’re incredible to say this. It’s very well explained & will hopefully help in a big way. Best thing I’ve read also. I heard a poster say JD should have stayed at home. It broke me, after all he’s been through. So perhaps they think my DD shouldn’t go to school or a school assembly incase 200 kids get offended. It could happen everyday for some TS sufferers.

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The issue here is you can only make accomodations for Tourettes by awareness and explanation. You can't actually stop what they are saying. They are always going to offend. And they will offend in what is essentially a none discriminatory way although some individuals will be more upset by it than others. Their intent is never one that is self centred or malicious. It's a truly awful condition.
In a situation where someone is having a severe bout of Tourettes tics, they are actively very vulnerable and at risk at that moment. They come about due to stress so trying to minimise that and prepare people in advance is necessary because it reduces the potential impact in many scenarios. However it can be in literally any situation from walking down the street, to dropping the kids off, to shopping that the impact happens and is very visible.
And being completely honest you can't stop people being offended. That's the nature of the disability. There is no nuance. There is no compromise which doesn't restrict the life of the person to being homebound or institutionalised.
In terms of the issue for sex and gender, genderists demand validation and compliance that goes beyond wanting rights and respect. They are actively rejecting third party spaces that can be used by everyone - the point is they are using the women in spaces and using others for validation. Transwomen also are not the most vulnerable in every scenario unlike is the case for someone in the midst of a Tourettes episode.
This means the harms and balancing of rights issues are massively different.
You aren't getting another group who are being impacted negatively more than others in the same way. There isn't issues over intent and motivations. There are third party solutions available. There aren't doubts over medicalisation and how you treat different cohorts - it's a medical condition that doesn't rely on fantasy wording and power and control dynamics. It has a clear set of diagnostic criteria and can be described in a way that would have a clear legal definition.
I got really upset by the thread last night because I have a friend with Tourettes. Having spent time with her doing normal things it brings it home how awful the condition is. It's exhausting just being around her. If she's having an episode it's immediately obvious what it is from her physical tics as well as her verbalisation which is notably different from normal communication. It's identifiable even if you didn't know she had Tourettes. You'd be able to work it out she had it. Indeed telling people what's going on they say "well we thought that was the case but we weren't sure" because they havent seen Tourettes 'in the wild' so to speak and for the most part the explanation is enough. Mainly cos her distress and discomfort is very much on display. You can't fake it.
I am comfortable with her being around my son. We have explained it and he gets it. It can be funny. It can be heartbreaking. It can be offensive. It can be embarrassing for those around her. It can put them at risk too. The best thing to do is literally to ignore it because it reduces the stress and anxiety and the tics are more likely to stop and stop more quickly. Staring, making comments or going on about how awful someone is behaving only makes the problem worse which isn't what anyone involved wants.
Honestly if you spend time with someone with severe Tourettes you would soon get over the concept of being offended even if they were saying the most offensive thing ever because you can visibly see the trauma and distress it's causing the person doing it. Even if you initially get upset, you very quickly realise just how awful the condition is and how there isn't offense made. Frankly if you are getting offended I question your own empathy levels - if you are expecting respect and tolerance you need to be able to give it too.
The idea that anyone is being racist, homophobic, etc etc when you see such an episode first hand is really laughable.
Where I have a problem with this current debate is the problem with discussion on the subject on social media is it's coming from people who have had no experience of this and don't have the visual feedback to also consider. Its a theoretical debate not one based on reality. It's a social media story and social experience into thoughts and politics instead of a reflection on the actual condition. It's all about just focusing on the word(s) used not the full behaviour manifestation. As soon as you see this this, it has a very different context and people can see it as well just focusing on the word and the concept of offense being the best all and end all. A tic is visual not just verbal.
The two actors on stage would have seen that from where they were stood. If they don't have prior knowledge and experience of Tourettes it could have completely thrown them and bewildered them. That wasn't fair. But no one was being racist.
They should have been better prepared and informed in advance - for both them and John's benefit. But honestly if you want people with Tourettes to be part of society as anyone else you just have to roll with it unfortunately. Otherwise you are advocating for active significant discrimination on the basis of disability. Being offended by it is unavoidable in certain scenarios but it's not actionable against the person doing it due to their capacity issues and their intent and this is the really important factor. Someone choosing which sexed space to use, is actively free to make that choice in that moment. They have a deliberate attempt to access wrong sex facilities. They have capacity to do this. If they reject third spaces again this is an active choice that isn't available for someone with Tourettes.
There was a massive duty of care failure that occurred by the organisers and broadcasters. This falls on them not the individuals concerned. It has to be a preemptive rather than reactionary response in terms of how you make accomodations and balance rights (which actually isn't a realistic thing to do in many situations - for example if you are out at a restaurant, leaving the restaurant could put someone much more at risk outside from passers by and just changes the situation rather than stopping it). You cant punish or force apologies.
And no he shouldn't apologise for a disability. It should be an explanation instead.
Even then the person is still at risk. And apologising doesn't really help the situation a lot of the time if the next thing you say is a whole bunch of other abusive stuff.
Honestly, I've really not seen many medical conditions I think are this appalling. It's a slow life long torture that impacts on every level of a persons life. You can't compare it to the sex and gender issue. Frankly I think it's offensive to do so and shows a very low level of understanding of the condition.