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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Lilyfreedom · 23/02/2026 18:26

They are quite mad (not PTD). The idea that transwomen can breastfeed, and therefore fall within the definition of a nursing woman within the WR is grim. The suggestion that this would ever find favour with the Court of Appeal is equally fantastical.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/02/2026 18:19

Another2Cats · 23/02/2026 18:09

Sorry, I'm not on Reddit. Could you provide a link?

This is the page:

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1rciw6u/ehrc_guidance_were_launching_our_appeal_on_the/

MyAmpleSheep · 23/02/2026 18:15

Apropos of not very much, this is a curious statement from the GLP:

We think it failed properly to recognise the nature and scope of the positive obligations imposed by Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights to protect the rights of trans and intersex people, and to avoid relegating them to “an intermediate zone as not quite one gender or the other”.

What does the GLP claim that “intersex” people are, if not “not quite one gender or the other”? Is not that intermediate status rather the point of claiming to be “intersex”?

Lilyfreedom · 23/02/2026 18:13

nicepotoftea · 23/02/2026 17:52

GLP are saying that you can't have it both ways. A statement that uses the word "must", must indeed always apply, not just depending on the circumstances.

[to my mind, they may have an argument here]

Does it really matter if the EHRC change the wording to say there may be grounds for a claim depending on the circumstances? The court clearly stated that this would be an argument about mixed sex facilities, not access to singles sex facilities.

GLP argue, among other things, that providing mixed-sex facilities would be outing to trans people and thus indirect discrimination.

You could say that about any single sex provision/ service/exception to the GRA.

What happens if you mysteriously don't inherit the family title?

I think that if they push this argument too far they risk the courts just confirming that there is no right to privacy re: sex.

They also argue that the correct comparator for a trans-identifying man should still be a woman.

Isn't that stretching things a bit given that higher courts have found otherwise?

They then go on to a very long argument as to why there would be a breach of Article 8 rights.

Have said it before, but I think their reliance on Article 8 is a house of cards that they they risk knocking over.

Edited

Have said it before, but I think their reliance on Article 8 is a house of cards that they they risk knocking over.

Agree. The thing with A8 is that it is very much a catch all of "I haven't been allowed to do what I want to do by the state".

The problem is that A8 (a) has a large margin of appreciation and (b) falls apart the moment that you come up against the rights of others, particularly women.

I also don't particularly understand the argument re being "outed". I am "outed" as a brunette every day. Why is gender identity such a private thing that you should be able to simultaneously keep entirely private, but also expect others to accommodate.

It is why ZP's suggestion that we just "change the law" always makes me laugh. To what? Other than to make every space mixed sex (in the way that a TRA would understand it) there is no way of defining a trans person sufficiently to ensure certainty of the law.

NotAtMyAge · 23/02/2026 18:13

"They also argue that the correct comparator for a trans-identifying man should still be a woman."

The correct comparator for a trans-identifying man has never been a woman. The Supreme Court judgment makes that quite clear. What they are arguing for is thew continuation of Stonewall's interpretation.

Another2Cats · 23/02/2026 18:09

MyAmpleSheep · 23/02/2026 17:51

I’m curious to see what PtD makes of the grounds for appeal. If @Another2Cats has accurately summarized them I don’t think they’ll stand up. But PtD is legally qualified and no fan of HLP.

Edited to add: he doesn’t appear to think very highly of them.

Edited

Sorry, I'm not on Reddit. Could you provide a link?

OP posts:
Talkinpeace · 23/02/2026 18:00

The EHRC guidance CANNOT contradict the law
as clarified in the Supreme Court ruling.

Jolly On can spaff all the money he likes
the only way the wording of the law can be changed is by legislation

and the McCloud ECHR case will fail because he lives in Ireland so lacks standing.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/02/2026 17:57

nicepotoftea · 23/02/2026 17:52

GLP are saying that you can't have it both ways. A statement that uses the word "must", must indeed always apply, not just depending on the circumstances.

[to my mind, they may have an argument here]

Does it really matter if the EHRC change the wording to say there may be grounds for a claim depending on the circumstances? The court clearly stated that this would be an argument about mixed sex facilities, not access to singles sex facilities.

GLP argue, among other things, that providing mixed-sex facilities would be outing to trans people and thus indirect discrimination.

You could say that about any single sex provision/ service/exception to the GRA.

What happens if you mysteriously don't inherit the family title?

I think that if they push this argument too far they risk the courts just confirming that there is no right to privacy re: sex.

They also argue that the correct comparator for a trans-identifying man should still be a woman.

Isn't that stretching things a bit given that higher courts have found otherwise?

They then go on to a very long argument as to why there would be a breach of Article 8 rights.

Have said it before, but I think their reliance on Article 8 is a house of cards that they they risk knocking over.

Edited

I think that if they push this argument too far they risk the courts just confirming that there is no right to privacy re: sex.

I strongly hope this is what the courts do confirm. How can an employer meet their statutory requirement for single sex toilets unless they know what sex the people using them are? The counter requirement that the workplace regulations do not refer to the same meaning of men and women as the EA2010 was rejected by the judge who said the same reasoning that applied to the EA carries over to the WR. PtD points out that the grounds of appeal don’t address this.

nicepotoftea · 23/02/2026 17:52

GLP are saying that you can't have it both ways. A statement that uses the word "must", must indeed always apply, not just depending on the circumstances.

[to my mind, they may have an argument here]

Does it really matter if the EHRC change the wording to say there may be grounds for a claim depending on the circumstances? The court clearly stated that this would be an argument about mixed sex facilities, not access to singles sex facilities.

GLP argue, among other things, that providing mixed-sex facilities would be outing to trans people and thus indirect discrimination.

You could say that about any single sex provision/ service/exception to the GRA.

What happens if you mysteriously don't inherit the family title?

I think that if they push this argument too far they risk the courts just confirming that there is no right to privacy re: sex.

They also argue that the correct comparator for a trans-identifying man should still be a woman.

Isn't that stretching things a bit given that higher courts have found otherwise?

They then go on to a very long argument as to why there would be a breach of Article 8 rights.

Have said it before, but I think their reliance on Article 8 is a house of cards that they they risk knocking over.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/02/2026 17:51

I’m curious to see what PtD makes of the grounds for appeal. If @Another2Cats has accurately summarized them I don’t think they’ll stand up. But PtD is legally qualified and no fan of HLP.

Edited to add: he doesn’t appear to think very highly of them.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 23/02/2026 17:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Another2Cats · 23/02/2026 17:25

DownhillTeaTray · 23/02/2026 14:25

GLP are appealing (well, not very, but you know what I mean 😉)

https://goodlawproject.org/ehrc-guidance-were-launching-our-appeal-on-the-high-courts-decision/

The grounds that they are putting forward (as far as I can make them out) are:

1 The court was wrong to say that the statement "If trans women are permitted to use a single-sex female lavatory all biological males must be permitted to use that lavatory" is legally correct as the use of the word "must" implies that it will always be the case.

However, the court said in the judgment at [59]-[61] that it will depend on the circumstances.

GLP are saying that you can't have it both ways. A statement that uses the word "must", must indeed always apply, not just depending on the circumstances.

[to my mind, they may have an argument here]

They also go on to make the same claim that the WI did, that this is about "living as women" rather than being an actual man or woman and so a non trans-identifying man can lawfully be excluded.

[I'll be interested to see where that argument goes, as this was what the WI argued against my DH]

They also argue that the court failed to properly consider their argument that providing trans-inclusive toilets was positive action under Section 158 Equality Act.

[I don't think that will likely go anywhere]

Further, the update didn't fully address the risk of gender reassignment discrimination.

They go into a lot of detailed argument about why excluding trans people form toilets is both direct and indirect gender discrimination.

GLP argue, among other things, that providing mixed-sex facilities would be outing to trans people and thus indirect discrimination. They also argue that the correct comparator for a trans-identifying man should still be a woman.

.

2 "Failure properly to construe the Interim Update in accordance with its natural meaning"

They seem to argue that the Interim Update assumed that they were talking to an employer or service provider that had at least some nodding acquaintance with discriminaiton law or they have legal advisors.

They argue that this should not be assumed and that there is a "natural and ordinary meaning" to the words.

They say, that an ordinary employer or service provider would read the Update and consequently may require a trans person to use the facilities designated for their “biological sex” if they do not have any mixed-sex facilities available.

They then argue that para [69] of the judgment is wrong and that:

"It follows that, where for practical reasons it is only possible to provide toilets designated for men and women, trans people may be required to use the toilets designated for their sex at birth. The Judgment does not engage anywhere with the reality that a proportion of duty bearers will not have the resources or facilities to offer additional spaces."

Which would be a bad thing.

They also argue that what was said about toilets in the Workplace Regs in the judgment at [34] is also not correct.
.

3 "Erroneous construction of the 1992 Workplace Regulations"

Again, they are repeating the argument from the original case that this can be done on a "trans-inclusive basis" and the court was wrong to say otherwise.

They have a very long argument as to why they are correct and the court isn't.
.

4 "Erroneous approach to Article 8 ECHR"

They then go on to a very long argument as to why there would be a breach of Article 8 rights.
.

Personally, I don't think most of these will stand up to scrutiny (but there again, what do I know about anything?)

OP posts:
TheAutumnCrow · 23/02/2026 16:53

Mmmnotsure · 23/02/2026 11:27

The GLP's pro-trans campaign which takes you through to 'Help us appeal the High Court's judgment on trans rights' has still only raised c £32k. Very different from previous fundraising. It does imply - not infer 😀 - that they may be running out of steam.

Interesting. I have a contact involved in ‘the scene’ in London and suggested to them it was all a big old grift. Got no pushback at all. Maybe word’s got round.

Lilyfreedom · 23/02/2026 16:49

DrudgeJedd · 23/02/2026 16:45

They had £4.2m in the bank this time last year, so plenty of cash to keep doing this for a few more years, even if their crowdfunding dried up.

Excellent, more helpful precedent being set at a higher level!

The fact they are appealing against the refusal of standing is ludicrous. What a waste of money.

DrudgeJedd · 23/02/2026 16:45

Lilyfreedom · 23/02/2026 16:12

They appear to have instructed Leigh Day, probably on the back of all the criticism. That will not come cheap. £30k is not going to to touch the sides of Leigh day and then what appears to be a giant counsel team.

They had £4.2m in the bank this time last year, so plenty of cash to keep doing this for a few more years, even if their crowdfunding dried up.

Lilyfreedom · 23/02/2026 16:12

DownhillTeaTray · 23/02/2026 14:25

GLP are appealing (well, not very, but you know what I mean 😉)

https://goodlawproject.org/ehrc-guidance-were-launching-our-appeal-on-the-high-courts-decision/

They appear to have instructed Leigh Day, probably on the back of all the criticism. That will not come cheap. £30k is not going to to touch the sides of Leigh day and then what appears to be a giant counsel team.

onepostwonder · 23/02/2026 16:00

borntobequiet · 23/02/2026 06:19

“Sex critical”? That’s a new one, or perhaps a sign of tiredness.

I was tired. I meant "Sex realist."

TWETMIRF · 23/02/2026 15:55

DownhillTeaTray · 23/02/2026 14:25

GLP are appealing (well, not very, but you know what I mean 😉)

https://goodlawproject.org/ehrc-guidance-were-launching-our-appeal-on-the-high-courts-decision/

They are appalling too 🤣

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2026 15:39

DameProfessorIDareSay · 23/02/2026 14:08

Look at this from the Gendered Intelligence website:

"The Court ruled that the EHRC's statement was not unlawful, but that a blanket exclusion of trans people would be unlawful."

"Trans people must not be excluded from single-sex spaces as standard or forced to use spaces based on their sex at birth. The law does not require a bathroom ban."

They also provide ‘Youth Groups’ for ages 8 to 25; what could possibly go wrong?

It’s beyond a joke how these well funded organisations are telling outright lies and completely ignoring safeguarding.

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/news/30-high-court-judgement-in-good-law-project-vs-ehrc

It’s not about being right, it’s about enough people believing their version.

DownhillTeaTray · 23/02/2026 14:27

And, obviously, they're grifting:

Good Law Project, alongside three individual claimants, are appealing the decision of the High Court on the lawfulness of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s interim guidance.

The three claimants have now applied for permission to appeal from the High Court. However, they are likely to need permission from the Court of Appeal.

We need your support to keep fighting. The EHRC is claiming costs of almost £300,000, and we have to pay our lawyers too. They think a big bill is going to stop us, because we’re not backed by billionaires or the government. But they’re wrong. Trans rights are human rights – and we will defend them.

As mentioned previously their crowdfunder isn't doing the numbers they used to do. They've only raised c £33,000 so far. Nothing like enough if their appeal is allowed.

DownhillTeaTray · 23/02/2026 14:25

GLP are appealing (well, not very, but you know what I mean 😉)

https://goodlawproject.org/ehrc-guidance-were-launching-our-appeal-on-the-high-courts-decision/

Helleofabore · 23/02/2026 14:25

Helleofabore · 23/02/2026 09:44

The commonality between JM's position and the poster on this thread really is about the hatred of women and girls saying 'no'. The blatant misogyny that comes from the comments made by male people (even those without transgender identities) towards women and girls who reject the very premise that no male person can change sex and that they are not female in any way, is always present. In what they say about those women and girls and their opinions about those women and girls.

I also think it is really important that we, as women, understand how deeply the 'lived experience' goes towards building this constructed, subjective reality. Of course, there will always be other women who will think that all this 'experience' means that maybe there is something there. That maybe a very few male people really are the female people they describe themselves as.

However, it is irrelevant that a very few male people understand their 'experience' as being 'female'. It simply isn't true unless someone considers it through the philosophical theories that support this being considered 'true'. It is impossible. And that really causes the whole thing to crumble so that must not be allowed to happen.

JM's perusal of Sarah Philimore has also been remarkable. I can imagine just how many women would be in his spotlight if the British Columbia hate speech laws were applicable here. As it is, Oger's threat the other day towards Mia Hughes that Mia should be careful lest she end up like Barry Neufield was concerning.

ahh. nooo...

towards women and girls who reject the very premise that male person can change sex and that they are not female in any way,

A random 'no' stayed in when I edited the sentence because posting. Sorry.

DameProfessorIDareSay · 23/02/2026 14:08

Look at this from the Gendered Intelligence website:

"The Court ruled that the EHRC's statement was not unlawful, but that a blanket exclusion of trans people would be unlawful."

"Trans people must not be excluded from single-sex spaces as standard or forced to use spaces based on their sex at birth. The law does not require a bathroom ban."

They also provide ‘Youth Groups’ for ages 8 to 25; what could possibly go wrong?

It’s beyond a joke how these well funded organisations are telling outright lies and completely ignoring safeguarding.

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/news/30-high-court-judgement-in-good-law-project-vs-ehrc

High Court Judgement in Good Law Project vs EHRC

A judgement has been handed down in Good Law Project vs EHRC

https://genderedintelligence.co.uk/news/30-high-court-judgement-in-good-law-project-vs-ehrc

fromorbit · 23/02/2026 14:01

Mmmnotsure · 23/02/2026 11:27

The GLP's pro-trans campaign which takes you through to 'Help us appeal the High Court's judgment on trans rights' has still only raised c £32k. Very different from previous fundraising. It does imply - not infer 😀 - that they may be running out of steam.

Agreed.All the pro trans commentary show GLP's thing has run its course. Future failure will add to that.

The big fund raising concert will also be interesting to see.

Mmmnotsure · 23/02/2026 11:27

The GLP's pro-trans campaign which takes you through to 'Help us appeal the High Court's judgment on trans rights' has still only raised c £32k. Very different from previous fundraising. It does imply - not infer 😀 - that they may be running out of steam.