Trans patient records medical team during cancer surgery

Fun fact - the level of testosterone in adult women of reproductive age is broadly similar to oestrogen, if not slightly higher. (Ranges obviously dependent on individuals and also their menstrual cycle).

So women have as much testosterone as oestrogen, if not slightly more. I’m considering asking for testosterone to be added to my HRT regimen, for Reasons. Will that make me a transman?

(spoiler, no it won’t, just a menopausal woman recognising the complex nature of her endocrine system and the role of testosterone in various bodily functions)

All of this to say trans people are not simply 'normal' men or 'normal' women for the purposes of medicine. Bodies are modified and can be different, even amongst trans people, based on a lot of factors.

The demands and expectations here on mumsnet for medicine to treat trans women as men and trans men as women aren't helping anyone.

No one is ‘tokenising’ anyone’s bodies here, mate. We are discussing material reality of body configurations.

Skin changes as well? Blimey!!!! So many changes ….and none of them makes you female in any way.

And way to go !!! You have again shown you lack any knowledge of what the fuck we are talking about in regards to female bodies. You know, the ones with breasts that are an interactive feedback system for their infants. You don’t even know what you are dismissing.

Male people producing a limited supply of secretion from their breasts has never been properly tested in regards to any drug interaction from any drug or hormone they have in their body. It has also been shown that the supply is not enough for an infant after a very short time. But this is beside the point.

The interactive feedback system that is controlled by a body designed to breast feed an infant is never going to be replicated by a male person unless they have an entire reproductive system implanted.

Just admit at this stage you don’t even know what you are talking about when it comes to breastfeeding a child. Yet, even there you venture an opinion based on no depth of knowledge at all.

There is nothing unnatural about my body. I won't be tokenising anyone else's body as a counter example to demonstrate your bias.

Not all trans people will find their bodies as receptive to exogenous hormones as others. There are those of us who do mature through Tanner stage 5, but it seems unlikely for a majority simply due to the age of initiating treatment related to epigenic limitations.

No one is saying HRT modifies the reproductive system, with the exception of the receptors that are present for whatever reason (I experienced changes over a few years that no one wants to hear about involving skin dekeratinisation.)

HRT can impact moods, digestion and um post-digestion, but I somewhat agree 'periods' are a bridge off to nowhere.

Both adoptive mothers and trans mothers use the Newman-Goldfarb protocol. There may be alterations required based on the maturity of the trans mother's breasts and hormone levels. But I know how sex realists feel about that.

My HRT is sustaining the operation of my body in a medically measurable and normal functional way.

Sigh. Your oestrogen supplements are not replacing anything. Therefore it is not HRT. You never, naturally, had that amount of oestrogen. See? Words are important.

I've always had estrogen in my body. The HRT I began more than 40 years ago increased the levels. My HRT has been prescribed by dozens of GPs over the years and adapted for my age as required. Without HRT, my hormone levels would be solely based on those produced by my adrenal glands and maybe pituitary? I'm not 100% on that.

It's not "HRT" for you, mate. You have suffered no loss of hormones, to be replaced. You are adding hormones to your system, that was not created for them.

And don't pretend that the treatment for a woman who has not been pregnant and wishes to breastfeed, is the same for a man.

There is nothing unnatural about my body. I won't be tokenising anyone else's body as a counter example to demonstrate your bias.

Not all trans people will find their bodies as receptive to exogenous hormones as others. There are those of us who do mature through Tanner stage 5, but it seems unlikely for a majority simply due to the age of initiating treatment related to epigenic limitations.

No one is saying HRT modifies the reproductive system, with the exception of the receptors that are present for whatever reason (I experienced changes over a few years that no one wants to hear about involving skin dekeratinisation.)

HRT can impact moods, digestion and um post-digestion, but I somewhat agree 'periods' are a bridge off to nowhere.

Both adoptive mothers and trans mothers use the Newman-Goldfarb protocol. There may be alterations required based on the maturity of the trans mother's breasts and hormone levels. But I know how sex realists feel about that.

A person who takes exogenous hormones in quantities that are not natural in their sexed body will certainly experience SOME changes to their body. Only changes that their sexed body will accommodate.

And that person never changes sex category by taking the quantities of hormones that is typical for the opposite sex category.

A male person with some breast tissue development and fat redistribution is still a male person regardless of the amount of estrogen he takes. And will never go through menopause, regardless of whether he personally describes his situation as 'menopause' or not. He will also never have 'periods' even if he cycles progesterone and estrogen. And that breast tissue that he develops is never going to be the interactive feeding system that a female person has with her infant. Because in that regard, that breast is missing receptors etc that gives the mother's body the ability to adjust the milk supply for that infant.

Because a person switching their dominant sex hormone will experience sex-based changes based on the activation of those receptors both externally and internally. A Google search or medical literature search can provide as much detail as you wish.

The receptors are present within organ systems and throughout lymphatic and circulatory systems. Hormonal affects are not just cosmetic.

Secondary sex based changes. Their actual sex never changes.

Because a person switching their dominant sex hormone will experience sex-based changes based on the activation of those receptors both externally and internally. A Google search or medical literature search can provide as much detail as you wish.

Ok. Of course they are present. But if they are not in the same quantity and in the same organic and do the same thing, why is it relevant to mention that both sexes have receptors for estrogen and testosterone?

The outcomes are not going to be the same, are they?

I didn't say "...exactly the same number..."

I said they are present.

Would you like to provide evidence that male and female people have exactly the same number of estrogen and testosterone receptors throughout their body please? Because this is not what I have read recently.

Testosterone in such large doses is far more damaging for women's health than oestrogen is for men's.

Everyone has estrogen and testosterone receptors throughout their body based on their DNA. Hormones act upon and modify receptive body systems regardless of birth sex.

Everyone = all women.

Indeed. Hormone levels act, or don't, on existing body systems according to the sex of those systems.

A transman on testosterone still has female kidney filtration rates and will need a kidney transplant at female marker levels, not male ones. As at least one transman found out to her cost.

The immune system of a man taking oestrogen doesn't react in the same way as that of a woman. As they discovered when testing Covid treatments. Because women tend to get Covid less severely, there was a theory that oestrogen was a protective factor and they tried giving it as a treatment. It worked for women (both pre- and post- menopausal) but had no effect on men because their immune cells didn’t have the relevant oestrogen receptors.

Testosterone causes vaginal atrophy in women. It doesn't in men. I hope I don't need to explain why not.

I've been prescribed estrogen for over 40 years. I'm still waiting for this fabled breakdown and feebleness sex realists keep telling the world trans women suffer. I am healthy with no chronic conditions.