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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

741 replies

weegielass · 03/02/2026 10:21

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

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SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 07/02/2026 23:51

HildegardP · 07/02/2026 21:34

One of the things that makes me somewhat optimistic about this case is the fact that the SG's lawyer solemnly invoked the Convention right to life then unwittingly cantered off into the realm of abusive men coercing obedience through threats of suicide, to say nothing of the absence of evidence for his argument.

When a lawyer tries to rely on such spectacular drama llama-ing, it's a good indication of the weakness of their case.

Not to mention the next level moment when he described a TIM being placed into a men's prison as akin to the government killing them

Hedgehogforshort · 07/02/2026 22:38

Hopefully the Scots government are hard to miss

Londonmummy66 · 07/02/2026 22:21

John Swinney and his colleagues have made clear they believe the male need for validation is more important than women’s safety and dignity

Alex Massey's headline says all that needs to be said really.

HildegardP · 07/02/2026 21:34

One of the things that makes me somewhat optimistic about this case is the fact that the SG's lawyer solemnly invoked the Convention right to life then unwittingly cantered off into the realm of abusive men coercing obedience through threats of suicide, to say nothing of the absence of evidence for his argument.

When a lawyer tries to rely on such spectacular drama llama-ing, it's a good indication of the weakness of their case.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 07/02/2026 21:04

Thanks for the link.

"As far as the government is concerned, women who object to this should know their place and pipe down. Ministers argue that testimony from female prisoners unhappy at being imprisoned alongside men is “irrelevant”. It is hard to see how the government could more clearly signal its contempt for women. Their rights are contextual and qualified, whereas the rights of men who think themselves women are absolute and unequivocal."
(my bolding)

A wonderfully clear and concise way of putting it, I definitely feel that it sums up the SG stand/opinion exactly.

borntobequiet · 07/02/2026 20:43

There are some very good journalists expressing sex realist views and Alex Massie is one of the best.

lcakethereforeIam · 07/02/2026 20:35

Also the Times, Alex Massie

https://archive.ph/EQDA9

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/repellent-policy-on-trans-inmates-shows-snp-chooses-men-over-women-dpzs6gp5z

The Scottish government argues that decisions on trans prisoners should be made case by case. That means, in effect, that there are no actual rules to be followed and it further requires us to swallow the laughable proposition that a man who kills another man may be housed in a women’s prison, while a man who murders a woman must make do with a male prison, even if he identifies as a woman.

This kind of ghoulish but I can't help wondering what the SPS would do with a TiM who murdered another TiM? Would they respect the identity of the murderer and stick him with the women, or the victim and stick the killer with the other men. Or would the struggle of trying to parse their own logic actually cause the SPS to burst into flames?

Repellent policy on trans inmates shows SNP chooses men over women

John Swinney and his colleagues have made clear they believe the male need for validation is more important than women’s safety and dignity

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/repellent-policy-on-trans-inmates-shows-snp-chooses-men-over-women-dpzs6gp5z

ItsCoolForCats · 07/02/2026 19:16

WearyAuldWumman · 07/02/2026 18:54

The Times is one of the few news outlets which has been explicit about Laing's crime.

Yes, Kudos to the Times. Their eporting on this has been great.

WearyAuldWumman · 07/02/2026 18:54

The Times is one of the few news outlets which has been explicit about Laing's crime.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 07/02/2026 16:38

"Robert Shankland, a “caring and vulnerable” 46-year-old in poor health, had been lured to a property in the town of Glenrothes, Fife.
There he was subjected to grotesque torture over several hours, including a sexual assault. After a ligature was tied around Shankland’s neck and a plastic bag pulled over his head, his three killers ate ham sandwiches alongside the body."

Anyone who reads that and still supports this deeply sick ideology is a sick, sick human being, and every government who is pushing this on us is morally bankrupt and unfit to walk amongst us, let alone lead us. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

Wackdemmoles · 07/02/2026 15:22

Why is the SNP still fighting for a trans killer to be in a female jail?
Saturday February 07 2026, 2.00pm, The Sunday Times
The women who won the Supreme Court sex ruling are taking on Scotland to ensure no biological men are in women’s prisons. It’s a test of Nicola Sturgeon’s legacy

Susan Smith and Marion Calder helped For Women Scotland win the Supreme Court ruling on biological sex and are now challenging the Scottish government
LUCY NORTH/PA
Daniel Sanderson
, Scottish Political Editor |
John Boothman
, Political Correspondent

In November 2013, the Scottish courts dealt with an “utterly depraved” murder. Eight months earlier, Robert Shankland, a “caring and vulnerable” 46-year-old in poor health, had been lured to a property in the town of Glenrothes, Fife.
There he was subjected to grotesque torture over several hours, including a sexual assault. After a ligature was tied around Shankland’s neck and a plastic bag pulled over his head, his three killers ate ham sandwiches alongside the body.
Among them was Paris Green, 22 at the time, who was born Peter Laing.

Paris Green, previously known as Peter Laing
Over three days last week, the case was back in the spotlight in a high-profile legal dispute involving the Scottish government.
But to the dismay of many, the taxpayer-funded KC fielded by ministers was not there to protect the public from Green. Instead, he was fighting the corner of the killer, and at least two other biologically male murderers who identify as women, in defence of what was presented as their inalienable right to be considered to serve their life sentences in female prisons.
The case has been brought by For Women Scotland, the feminist campaign group, which argues that after its seismic legal victory in the Supreme Court last April, when it established that under UK equalities law, sex is defined by biology, the practice in Scotland of housing biological men in women’s prisons is unlawful
Under Scottish prison rules, violent trans offenders, including murderers, are not automatically considered a risk to women if their victims were men. Only those with “a history of violence against women and girls” are ineligible for placement in the female estate, a situation many see as perverse. After repeated requests to the government to consider their position, the group says it felt compelled to take them to court once again.
Opening the case, Aidan O’Neill KC, who also represented For Women Scotland in the Supreme Court, posed a question that many in the SNP are now asking. “Why are they fighting this?” he asked. “If it’s not the law — they don’t have a legal case — then presumably it’s a political calculation.”
If it is a political move, it appears to be a bizarre one. Even Sir Keir Starmer accepted years ago the need to ditch his support for gender self-ID, after remarks such as that it was “not right” to say only women had a cervix attracted derision.
On the eve of the case, which is unfolding with Holyrood elections just weeks away, Anas Sarwar, Scottish Labour’s leader, said he would ban biological men from women’s prisons within days if he became first minister in May.
Yet the leadership of the SNP remains unwilling to wave the white flag in the gender wars. The Scottish government KC, Gerry Moynihan, explained that a rule in which prisoners were “segregated” on the basis of only biological sex would amount to a breach of their human rights. And Green is no isolated example. More than a quarter of trans women prisoners (14 out of 51 — 28 per cent) have been permitted to serve their sentence in female jails since 2014.
Other beneficiaries include Melissa Young, who stabbed a neighbour 29 times, and Alexandria Stewart, formerly Alan Baker, who murdered a father-of-two in a “wicked and brutal” attack. Notwithstanding the fact that most trans criminals in Scotland are housed in the jail that aligns with their biological sex, Moynihan said a “blanket” policy would risk driving “vulnerable” trans inmates to suicide.
The Scottish Human Rights Commission, a Holyrood-funded quango, intervened in the case to argue against a blanket exclusion. While not endorsing the current policy, which it said could threaten women’s rights, it said “the rights of one group cannot be systematically prioritised over those of another”.
The campaign group Scottish Trans said the case could affect* “trans people’s equality and human rights more broadly than in prisons”, noting that For Women Scotland’s previous legal victories had led to a “restriction of trans people’s rights”.*
The devolved government’s many critics said the rights of female prisoners to single-sex spaces appeared to be of secondary concern.
Joanna Cherry, the former SNP MP, said the fact that John Swinney, the first minister, was prepared to go to court to defend the rights of trans criminals showed he was “not in fact his own man” and remained “Sturgeon’s heir”. She said he had, after all, “been her fixer for many years”.

Joanna Cherry
PETER SUMMERS/GETTY IMAGES
While Nicola Sturgeon is a diminished force, Cherry said “lackeys” who surrounded her during her reign and “hounded out” gender critical women from the SNP, still retained influence.
“It’s important to be aware that from an early stage in Scotland, trans activists strategised that if they could get trans-identifying male prisoners into the female estate, then they could get trans-identifying men into women’s spaces across the board,” Cherry said.
“Prisons are their bridgehead, and there is huge pressure on John Swinney to fight this case. John is surrounded by activist civil servants and SNP parliamentarians, staffers and activists who have bought into the ideology of self-identification of sex, and thus he fears a backlash should he face up to the reality of the UK Supreme Court judgment.”
Sturgeon, Scotland’s longest-serving first minister, quit unexpectedly in early 2023, after refusing to back down in a trans prisons storm all of her own.
Swinney repeatedly refused to say at Holyrood last month whether the “evil killers” Green, Young and Stewart were really women. His response drew immediate comparisons to Sturgeon’s infamous non-answer when asked about the sex of Isla Bryson, the double rapist formerly known as Adam Graham.
Bryson was initially sent to a female jail in 2023, weeks after Sturgeon had burnt through political capital in her failed attempt to impose a legal system of gender self-ID on Scotland. “That individual is a rapist,” became her much-derided stock response.

Rules were tightened after the scandal over Bryson, who is now in the male estate, on both sides of the border. However, England went further, banning all violent male offenders, regardless of the sex of their victim, as well as those with male genitalia, from the women’s estate.
Cherry, an eminent KC, retreated from the world of politics in 2024 after losing her Westminster seat, and returned to legal practice.
While an SNP parliamentarian, she was once a lonely voice in expressing opposition to Sturgeon’s leadership and determination to push through self-ID. Increasingly, however, internal critics are putting their heads above the parapet, bemused and angry at Swinney’s stance on the prisons issue.
Ruth Maguire, a respected SNP parliamentarian, recently told Swinney at Holyrood’s equivalent of prime minister’s questions of “countless testimonies” from female prisoners, many of them victims of physical or sexual violence, of how traumatic being locked up alongside men could be.
In a devastating payoff, she asked him whether he realised “how appalling the government’s actions feel to many of us”.
The latest such harrowing account was heard in the Court of Session case last week.
A prisoner known only as AA told in sworn testimony how her life had been made a “living hell” by biologically male inmates free to roam a female wing in a prison she had been held in. One, she said, had taken an unwanted interest in her, leading to threats of sexual abuse.
The woman described how the attention had brought back memories of a past “toxic relationship”, when she had been tied naked to a radiator by a man who told her “it was his way of loving me”.
The SNP government argued against the affidavit being admitted to the case, suggesting in its legal pleadings that a man in a female jail was as harmless as a mother taking her young son into a female changing room.
One SNP MSP said many of their colleagues had “drunk the Kool-Aid” on gender issues during the Sturgeon years, and that Swinney feared a party split if he were to abandon her stance.
Senior figures in the SNP close to Swinney have long consoled themselves with the notion that the gender wars are the preserve of a vocal but small number of obsessives. That view, however, is now misguided, according to several SNP figures who have been campaigning before May’s elections.

For Women Scotland staged a protest outside the SNP’s International Women’s Day event in Edinburgh last year
ALAMY
“The issue is now coming up on the doorsteps when we are out campaigning, and people cannot understand how this is still a priority,” said one SNP backbencher. “On this, we are completely out of step with the public. The vast majority of people do not want to see men, however they identify, in women’s prisons.”
Swinney is also grappling with a potential cabinet split. Kate Forbes, the deputy first minister, is said to be “dead against” the agenda. She recently told Holyrood magazine that she “understands” questions about whether the SNP has a women problem, though she said it was not her experience locally.
Another nationalist MSP normally supportive of Swinney appeared exasperated when asked how the SNP government had managed to find itself back in court again over gender. It is, after all, less than a year since For Women Scotland inflicted the humiliating and costly defeat for the SNP government in the Supreme Court.
It followed an earlier, lesser-known 2022 court victory, secured by the group of three women volunteers, who met on Mumsnet, against a government with a £68 billion budget.
Given the implications of last April’s ruling, and the fact that the Equality and Human Rights Commission largely backed For Women Scotland’s legal arguments last week, in an official intervention, few would bet against a hat-trick of legal wins.
Perhaps the best Swinney can hope for is that Lady Ross, a busy judge who also has High Court cases to preside over in coming weeks, does not get around to delivering her ruling until after May’s elections.

Daniel Sanderson | The Times & The Sunday Times

Dan Sanderson is Scottish political editor at The Times and The Sunday Times. Previously, he was Scotland correspondent at The Telegraph. He started his career in local newspapers and began covering S

https://www.thetimes.com/profile/daniel-sanderson1

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 07/02/2026 13:58

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

ickky · 07/02/2026 12:44

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 06/02/2026 20:46

😂😂😂 far too close to reality.

Unfortunately this is reality. All these things are happening now.

Kirschcherries · 07/02/2026 10:28

@KnottyAuty I agree the GRC is a good thing and by separating sex and gender in law it becomes easier to apply legislation correctly.

Sex is biological and immutable and everyone has a sex. SSS are exactly that.

Gender is optional and people are free not to believe in it nor do they have to pander to it. Respect and pandering are two different things. I can treat someone with respect whilst not pandering to their beliefs.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/02/2026 10:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2026 10:07

Yes, IIRC in Scotland they rejected every single amendment which would have given women some protection.

Yup. Thats why that picture of Isla Bryson in his pink leggings had such an impact. They’d just voted to allow sex offenders like him to be able to change his legal sex to female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2026 10:07

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/02/2026 10:05

All I can say is thank fuck we had a conservative government at the time of the GRR in Scotland and thank fuck for the section 35 being enacted. Otherwise we would have self ID into prisons and women prisoners would have no protection from these violent men.

There’s no way the current Labour government would have done that. Wish the Supreme Court ruling had come during the conservative governments time in office too. I regret my Labour vote.

Yes, IIRC in Scotland they rejected every single amendment which would have given women some protection.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/02/2026 10:05

All I can say is thank fuck we had a conservative government at the time of the GRR in Scotland and thank fuck for the section 35 being enacted. Otherwise we would have self ID into prisons and women prisoners would have no protection from these violent men.

There’s no way the current Labour government would have done that. Wish the Supreme Court ruling had come during the conservative governments time in office too. I regret my Labour vote.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 07/02/2026 09:22

CarefullyCuratedFurniture · 06/02/2026 21:33

I've spent a large part of the last week with a young man in prison who has been threatening to kill himself if the prison management don't acquiesce to his demands requests. We're not going along with his requests, it's not going to happen. I know for a fact that he is capable of at least attempting to carry out his threats. He hasn't killed himself yet.

Why are his demands unreasonable, while a man who says he will kill himself if he isn't locked up with women is immediately pandered to? Is my prisoner less important, less valuable, less worthy?

Your prisoner’s demands will be seen as unreasonable but the ideologues and ‘be kinders’ like SH with her interest in counselling (and may be a dangerous amateur like people I know of) whether they believe that TWAW or not will automatically give more weight to the threats from the TiM believing it comes from a genuine sense of self. They have fallen for the ‘most marginalised vulnerable group’ lie.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 07/02/2026 08:53

So many country's outside the West have medieval attitudes towards women, that's why it's so, so .... annoying (shall we say) that the lefties in the West want to take us back to the same times and call it 'progressive' 🤬

KnottyAuty · 07/02/2026 08:29

Mmmnotsure · 06/02/2026 20:24

For those of you not on X, Lucy Hunter Blackburn has posted the following 'draft' of a proposed new Scottish Government Bill. Echoes of Jonathan Swift, who would have been good round about now.

Women (National Resource) (Scotland) Bill
[DRAFT]

An Act of the Scottish Parliament to exploit the value of the female half of the population and something about dogs, just to justify spending any time on it

1.Relevant purposes
(1) A woman may be treated as a resource for the following purposes

(a) The performance of a sexual act for payment
(b) Alleviating mental distress in men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in prisons
(c) Providing psychological support to men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in settings including but not limited to

(i) prisons
(ii) rape and sexual crisis violence crisis centres
(iii) domestic violence services
(iv) hospitals, including closed mental hospitals
(v) schools
(vi) sports

(d) The supply of eggs for other individuals using assisted reproductive technology

(e) The supply of new-born babies under contract to other individuals, provided that any associated payments are described as 'expenses'

(f) The management of misbehaviour by boys in school

(g) Politically opportunistic statements about violence against women and women's financial circumstances and any other related matter

(h) Any other purposes for which Scottish Ministers may from time to time make provision by Order.

2.Dogs
Something about dogs that isn't really needed but makes a good headline.

3.Interpretation
(1) For all the purposes covered by this Act, everyone knows what a woman is, but for the avoidance of doubt, in section 1, a woman is a person defined by reference to their biological sex being female.

(2) In this section, “biological sex” means sex at birth.

It’s weird to see this stated so plainly; otherwise difficult to see the water we swim in.

Ive long been annoyed about the way girls are used in schools to try to civilise the boys - at our cost.

A tangent but this week Netflix offered me Love is Blind Habibi. It was fascinating. The attitudes of some of the men were straight out of the 1900s. Two in particular were paired with beautiful women who dressed in a modern western style - but they soon showed signs of wanting them more modest. One insisted that his match obey him and his wife would not be permitted to dance. It was fascinating because both men looked like the epitome of coercive controllers but believed themselves to be “right” in the “Arab tradition”. They were astonished that a woman would pick her love of dancing - “such a small thing” - over this man she’d ostensibly only just met and dare to reject this potential “husband”. Sorry for rambling but their total blindness to alternative points of view was what fascinated me. And made me think about how women are viewed in our society - these men were explicit about what they expected but in our society this stuff about women as obedient support humans is implied - so much more difficult to tackle. Scotgov and the rest - like the reality show contestants- seem to believe they are “right”. The misogyny is really scary!

KnottyAuty · 07/02/2026 08:10

HildegardP · 06/02/2026 23:20

Take look at the case law prior to the GRA - now that is disturbing. Individual judges allowed far greater leeway to TIMs than the GRA affords. Croft v Royal Mail & the hair-raising A v the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire are worth your while.

Naomi Cunningham contrasts the pre & post-GRA situations as the latter being "a wide gate but into a small paddock" & the former being "a narrow gate onto the entire hillside". The smallness of that GRA paddock is why Gender Identitarian activists have spent the last 15 years or more lying about its effects.

Thank you for quoting it better than me - I was trying to remember the paddock analogy and failing.

Seems odd but maybe in the end we will be thankful for Goodwin and the resulting GRA.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2026 02:47

Mmmnotsure · 06/02/2026 20:24

For those of you not on X, Lucy Hunter Blackburn has posted the following 'draft' of a proposed new Scottish Government Bill. Echoes of Jonathan Swift, who would have been good round about now.

Women (National Resource) (Scotland) Bill
[DRAFT]

An Act of the Scottish Parliament to exploit the value of the female half of the population and something about dogs, just to justify spending any time on it

1.Relevant purposes
(1) A woman may be treated as a resource for the following purposes

(a) The performance of a sexual act for payment
(b) Alleviating mental distress in men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in prisons
(c) Providing psychological support to men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in settings including but not limited to

(i) prisons
(ii) rape and sexual crisis violence crisis centres
(iii) domestic violence services
(iv) hospitals, including closed mental hospitals
(v) schools
(vi) sports

(d) The supply of eggs for other individuals using assisted reproductive technology

(e) The supply of new-born babies under contract to other individuals, provided that any associated payments are described as 'expenses'

(f) The management of misbehaviour by boys in school

(g) Politically opportunistic statements about violence against women and women's financial circumstances and any other related matter

(h) Any other purposes for which Scottish Ministers may from time to time make provision by Order.

2.Dogs
Something about dogs that isn't really needed but makes a good headline.

3.Interpretation
(1) For all the purposes covered by this Act, everyone knows what a woman is, but for the avoidance of doubt, in section 1, a woman is a person defined by reference to their biological sex being female.

(2) In this section, “biological sex” means sex at birth.

Brilliant! I would laugh, but it’s too near the knuckle.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2026 02:45

HildegardP · 06/02/2026 23:20

Take look at the case law prior to the GRA - now that is disturbing. Individual judges allowed far greater leeway to TIMs than the GRA affords. Croft v Royal Mail & the hair-raising A v the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire are worth your while.

Naomi Cunningham contrasts the pre & post-GRA situations as the latter being "a wide gate but into a small paddock" & the former being "a narrow gate onto the entire hillside". The smallness of that GRA paddock is why Gender Identitarian activists have spent the last 15 years or more lying about its effects.

Really good points.

HildegardP · 06/02/2026 23:20

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 06/02/2026 21:25

It's seriously disturbing to think that women's right in the UK hinge on the fact that we have the legal fiction that is the GRC.

The probable route to a solution seems a trifle optimistic, the GRC changes their sex, they might only be legally female, but giving them that much is a mistake, a fiction, even a legal fiction is still a fiction.

Take look at the case law prior to the GRA - now that is disturbing. Individual judges allowed far greater leeway to TIMs than the GRA affords. Croft v Royal Mail & the hair-raising A v the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire are worth your while.

Naomi Cunningham contrasts the pre & post-GRA situations as the latter being "a wide gate but into a small paddock" & the former being "a narrow gate onto the entire hillside". The smallness of that GRA paddock is why Gender Identitarian activists have spent the last 15 years or more lying about its effects.