is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

I'm just pondering whether the Scottish Government thinks convicted criminals can self-ID into the category of non-criminals and be instantly released?

That really doesn't seem any more bonkers than thinking men can self-ID into the category of women and women's prisons.

What I understood he said was that the two cases of TIMs and TIFs are separate and distinct, and that he is here to argue the case against TIMs in women's prisons.

I was listening, he absolutely didn't say that. He did get a bit flustered and tried to make the point that this case (the TIF) is really outside the point of what he's arguing against. Which he's right about.

It's quite clearly a bit of a straw man (woman?NB?) argument in terms of the main point of the FWS challenge. And it's a TRA tactic intended to confuse. So not surprising the BBC reporter was confused.

I felt that after a bit of floundering (the very purpose of bringing up the TIF gotcha) AO correctly identified it as a straw person argument and got back on track with the main point.

As a PP said it's self-evidently ludicrous that any woman would be more at risk from another woman, however much body modification she has than a man.

If prisons in Scotland are anything like those in England, the obvious answer to the problem of suicidality among prisoners (and the shocking numbers of actual prisoner deaths by suicide) is to spend more money on prisons. Make them fundamentally decent places where at least minimal standards of safety, respect and efficiency can be implemented.

As a PP has said, you should be able to control risks of suicide in secure accommodation. And it's not just a matter of control and security. It's about treating every prisoner with appropriate respect and concern.

A system that so profoundly dehumanises the people governed by it, and then fixates on just one aspect of a small number of prisoners (i.e. their trans identity) and showers it with a super-concentrated dose of the respect that is denied in every other circumstances is bizarre to the point of black comedy.

What time does it resume, anyone know?

Yes I wondered this. I thought it was covered by prison law from c 1917?

He mostly said that this was outside the scope of his argument and is for SPS to manage.

I don't agree with him on this.

No, he wasn't, he I think said, they could be accommodated in a separate female facility.

Does anyone know what he means by this? English prisons don't mandate separation by sex?

This report says that O'Neil is arguing that biological females who identify as men belong in the male estate.

Is he?? Or has the BBC reporter got confused?

What about if a violent, criminal man says he's going to commit suicide unless he can rape unconsenting women? How far does this get taken?

And are we not to consider the point that when a prison-onset TIM says he'll be suicidal if not placed in the women's estate he might be lying and what he might be saying is that he'll be suicidal (or possibly just really unhappy) if he can't continue to abuse women?

I don't understand because putting men in the women's estate, whatever that man's gender identity, is already a crime as far as I can tell and a human rights abuse. So if you're going to allow that crime, what other crimes against women now magically become non-crimes because the Scottish Government wants them to be? Rape? Murder? It's a human rights abuse under international law already.

Most male abuse never gets to court. Just because a man isn't convicted of rape or violence against woman, doesn't mean he's never done that or isn't a risk to all women. The category that he belongs to that is relevant in terms of assessing risk is that he's male and has 160% the punch power of women.

There's an article today I've seen about a man imprisoned for sexual offences against children who killed himself after being bullied by the other inmates. The coroner made several recommendations, none of which were that he should have been put in a women's prison,

You'd think the only argument needed would be "as defined by the SUPREME COURT it's not legal to put ANY men in female only prisons. Please order the Scottish government/ prison system to follow the law. Thank you."
I should think even a Scottish judge could follow that argument.

Indeed.

Why do they pretend that prisons aren't equipped to manage suicide threats / risk?

That would be an excellent argument.

What if the TIM threatened suicide unless you went to lunch with them once a week, Judge? Still think acquiescing to their demands is good plan?

A ‘suicide clause’ would be mis-used by ideologues to continue placing men in the female estate irrespective of the risk that man could pose to women.

Again ‘passing’ is language used to hide:

”trans women who pass should be allowed access to the female estate”

should be written as

”men who deceive others should be allowed access to women.

...and foie gras at lunch with the governor every Wednesday.

Supreme court

What if they threaten suicide if they aren't given a 60" TV and a playstation, a big bag of weed and a phone?

If ever you need evidence that this is a sacred caste...

The Scottish government meanwhile argues that the Equality Act was designed to give people a basis on which to make a claim of discrimination.

Is that another version of ‘men in female changing rooms are fine, and anyway you can call the police if he attacks you’?

I was going to ask what if someone thought they were a monkey and became suicidal if they weren't placed in a zoo?

J - What if the only thing to manage a man threatening suicide is to place them in the female estate?

Yes we should definitely put policies in place based on people who threaten suicide to get what they want... 🤬

FFS…. What if the only measure to reduce suicide ideation in an individual is to release them from prison?!!! What a stupid fucking example to use, the poor man will attempt or threaten suicide if we don’t submit to his demands.