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Original poster

is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

741 replies

weegielass · 03/02/2026 10:21

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

OP posts:
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39
SternJoyousBeev2 · 04/02/2026 13:46

Men pose a risk to women whether they have been castrated or not.

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:45

Igneococcus · 04/02/2026 13:31

Why is this a problem women need to solve and women's safety sacrificed for?

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What threat does a post op transsexual pose?

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 13:42

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

Edited to delete my response to the Interuptaron.

womendeserveequalhumanrights · 04/02/2026 13:40

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

I trust the prison service to make it safe in the men's estate or in separate provision but removing the safety of women and subjecting them to emotional abuse and coercive control - all of the women in a prison - is not a solution.

Wherever he goes, it's not in the women's.

And also, this is not women's problem to solve. The law is clear.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 13:37

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

It’s not just about whether they are violent either. Merely being of the male sex means that showering or undressing next to them would constitute a humiliating and degrading environment for the female prisoners.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 13:36

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

They’ve already discussed in court that they can be kept safe within the male estate as they do with other vulnerable male prisoners.

Igneococcus · 04/02/2026 13:31

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

Why is this a problem women need to solve and women's safety sacrificed for?

ATranssexualWoman · 04/02/2026 13:25

Where exactly do you think a post operative transsexual should go? A men's prison is a death sentence for a post op trans woman. Case by case allows the prison service to distinguish between a genuine transsexual who's post op and no danger to anyone and a clear chancer like Karen White or Isla Bryson.

WearyAuldWumman · 04/02/2026 13:15

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 12:58

Respectfully I think it’s even worse than that. They’re considering only whether the violent men have been violent against women. Men who have been convicted of violence against men are ok to be with women, apparently. It didn’t occur to anyone that a violent man could and would be be violent against everyone?

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Yes. Peter Laing/Paris Green 'only' participated in the violation and murder of a man.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 13:08

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 13:06

Rights to privacy are qualified.

from the ECHR:

There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

So there is no right to privacy where law says there is no right, as required (among other things) for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

in short, no, there is no absolute right to privacy about one’s trans status.

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Thank you. Thats very clear.

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 13:06

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 12:56

It is quite refreshing to hear SCRH stating that female prisoner and staff rights are not considered in the current SPS policy. Nice to have it stated in court that trans rights do not have priority over the rights of others.

I do wonder about the article 8 rights to privacy of trans people. Surely that can’t be an absolute right to not have their trans status kept secret on all situations?

Rights to privacy are qualified.

from the ECHR:

There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

So there is no right to privacy where law says there is no right, as required (among other things) for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

in short, no, there is no absolute right to privacy about one’s trans status.

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 12:58

TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:33

Quite. And it isn’t violent vs non-violent either; it is men who have been convicted of violence or not. Not having been convicted of a violent crime is hardly a guarantee that they will not commit a sexual offence or violence in future. Stripping off in the showers in front of women is surely sexual exposure?

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Respectfully I think it’s even worse than that. They’re considering only whether the violent men have been violent against women. Men who have been convicted of violence against men are ok to be with women, apparently. It didn’t occur to anyone that a violent man could and would be be violent against everyone?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 12:56

It is quite refreshing to hear SCRH stating that female prisoner and staff rights are not considered in the current SPS policy. Nice to have it stated in court that trans rights do not have priority over the rights of others.

I do wonder about the article 8 rights to privacy of trans people. Surely that can’t be an absolute right to not have their trans status kept secret on all situations?

Original poster
weegielass · 04/02/2026 12:55

could/would SG take this further if FWS win?

OP posts:
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 12:50

ArabellaScott · 04/02/2026 12:14

All of these risible arguments were dealt with firmly by the SC. I can hardly believe the Scotgov are retrying it, again, in a lower ciurt. Are they not embarrassed?!

This is the Scottish government we’re talking about here!! 😂

TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:49

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 04/02/2026 12:36

Dr Upton was non-violent but his presence in a female changing room was humiliating and degrading.

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And the risk of harm Dr Upton presented was not confined to changing rooms - he also looked for offence in daily interactions and stated he would treat a patient who refused to consent to someone his sex treating them (which would be assault).

womendeserveequalhumanrights · 04/02/2026 12:47

I actually want to know how many women are being abused and having their human right to a single-sex space removed.

Not how many men, how many women.

womendeserveequalhumanrights · 04/02/2026 12:46

TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:35

It is hardly an ‘occasional’ breach if the prison is always has at least one man in it.

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And it destroys the single-sex space for ALL the women.

Every time the man is in the women's prison all the the women in that prison have their human rights removed, they are at higher risk of assault and are being coercively controlled and emotionally abused.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 04/02/2026 12:36

TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:33

Quite. And it isn’t violent vs non-violent either; it is men who have been convicted of violence or not. Not having been convicted of a violent crime is hardly a guarantee that they will not commit a sexual offence or violence in future. Stripping off in the showers in front of women is surely sexual exposure?

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Dr Upton was non-violent but his presence in a female changing room was humiliating and degrading.

Justme56 · 04/02/2026 12:35

ickky · 04/02/2026 11:48

@Justme56

Wow, do you have any links?

This is from the MBM analysis June 2023.

is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?
TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:35

ArabellaScott · 04/02/2026 12:12

'A rule without exceptions, such as the one FWS say should be implemented, can only be lawful if the occasional hard case only leads to a breach of someone qualified rights, such as their article 8 rights to privacy, family life etc.'

Putting any male into a women's prison breaches every woman's right to a single sex prison. If they dont believe a.single sex space is justified they will have to make all.prisons mixed sex.

It is hardly an ‘occasional’ breach if the prison is always has at least one man in it.

TheBlythe · 04/02/2026 12:33

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/02/2026 12:17

Why are they continually referencing violent Transwomen prisoners? even a non violent Transwoman in a female prison creates a humiliating and degrading environment for the female prisoners and staff.

Quite. And it isn’t violent vs non-violent either; it is men who have been convicted of violence or not. Not having been convicted of a violent crime is hardly a guarantee that they will not commit a sexual offence or violence in future. Stripping off in the showers in front of women is surely sexual exposure?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 04/02/2026 12:26

ArabellaScott · 04/02/2026 12:13

Plenty of males are at risk of suicide - do they all get put into women's prison to improve their mental health?

Plenty of prisoners in general are at risk of suicide because they have been locked up in a prison. Letting these prisoners out would help improve their mental health - do they all get to be released?

MyAmpleSheep · 04/02/2026 12:23

SternJoyousBeev2 · 04/02/2026 12:15

But wouldnt the obligation be to ensure their opportunities for self harm are limited as far as possible rather than meeting their demands whether that be a demand to be moved to the female estate or a demand by a non trans identifying male to be moved to a lower security facility closer to their home?

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Lady Ross asked AO what if there was a prisoner for whom the only way a suicide risk could be managed was to place them in the women’s estate. That I think led to the point about how there cannot be a trans veto on women only prisons.

I suspect the SM will argue they must have the flexibility to put a suicidal man in a women’s prison, and I think (I hope) that LR will say that it is not reasonable to argue there could ever be a man whose suicidality could only be managed that way.

Remember we were joking about large screen TVs and foie gras? These are obvious points and the court will have to address them.