How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

“'Trans acceptance' is supported by more people than not: trans women are women and trans men are men.”

And yet, even in those countries that have legislated that if a man says they are a woman. The majority of the population doesn’t actually believe “trans women are women and trans men are men.”

When polled, the majority of the population reject male people being included in female sports categories. That is, after all, the ultimate test. Because if a man can really be a female person, they would of course be naturally included in female sports categories.

It is almost like people repeat mantras to make others feel good but they don’t believe the mantras they repeat. Or they will say they agree with something in theory but when the reality is described will show that they really don’t agree.

'Trans acceptance' is supported by more people than not: trans women are women and trans men are men. No one is trying to crowbar men into women's spaces. Trans people are not responsible for men that pretend to be trans to criminally target women and girls. These men would be criminally targeting women and girls without trans acceptance.

It's just so much easier for them to target women and girls thanks to the lie that transwomen are women. Lucky for them, eh.

Why can't you accept, that most women do not want men, irrespective of how they identify, in their safe spaces. They simply do not want you there.
Why don't you go and live in one of these accepting, inclusive countries if it makes you feel better, but, I feel sorry for the women in those countries, because they probably feel the same as the majority of women in the UK, that their rights have been eroded, simply to make a tiny minority of men feel better.

Some countries, representative of an accepting inclusive culture, passed laws extending protection for gender identity and expression as 'trans acceptance.' In those countries gender non-conforming people are provided special accommodation so that they may participate wholly in public spaces as their acquired gender. Even with these laws, a significant portion of trans people seek out third spaces so that their non-conformance doesn't attract undue attention or in some extreme cases, violence.

'Trans acceptance' is supported by more people than not: trans women are women and trans men are men. No one is trying to crowbar men into women's spaces. Trans people are not responsible for men that pretend to be trans to criminally target women and girls. These men would be criminally targeting women and girls without trans acceptance.

Men aren't and can never be women. The truth is that simple.

@onepostwonder

The villains, so to speak, are the people trying crowbar men into women’s toilets and changing rooms. It doesn’t matter what sex they are, or claim to be.

If I were to die tomorrow I would have no regrets. My life, while challenging at first, has been wonderful. Every moment has been a blessing. I love my husband and our life together. I am so so proud of our children. I love my parents and brother. My extended family was never anything but supportive. My careers were so much more than a freak like me had any right to experience. Nothing sex realists believe will ever change this.

To the original poster, on topic I think:

Sex realists prove again and again that their efforts have very little to do with genuinely protecting anyone. Spaces and sports are a convenient diversion with some current social currency. Trans people are bullied and harassed unrelentingly online. People are told we are both mentally and physically infirm. People are told we are diabolically criminal. People are told we are pharmaceutically and surgically damaged. People are told we are failures and are despondently unhappy. Thankfully, it seems most people aren't persuaded by such neo-puritanical sophistry.

If someone is constantly characterising trans people as villains, I'd ask why they are doing this. They aren't protecting anyone and they're not doing themselves, or the person they are telling any favours.

Is a person with severe congenital physical disabilities also born in the wrong body?

How does that work then?

Where is the right body?

How does this happen?

Where is the evidence for this?

Gosh how dismissive are you!

people cannot be born into the wrong body

of course they can

It is amusing that someone calls, recognising the reality (which is completely demonstrable) that human beings cannot change sex, a 'belief'.

There is a saying: If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. A certain poster has supplied enough horses for Trooping the Colour during his time on MN with all his wishing.

Your beliefs do not reflect my experience.

What experience is this? Just because no woman has actually said "you are a man" doesn't mean that at least one woman has thought it.

Material reality will abide no matter what a person’s subjective belief about reality is.

Safeguarding should only deal in material reality because a belief that is contradictory to material reality is always going to be a weakness in that safeguarding.

@MyAmpleSheep @Helleofabore I am under no illusions that I will be listened to but I am totally fucked off with the David Walliams "I'm a laydee" routine, the appeal for passing privileges and the idea that you can earn a woman's identity if you fuck your body up enough.

I started HRT as a teen over 40 years ago. I had surgery in my 20s over 30 years ago. I started transition and had surgery in two different countries, neither of which is in the UK. My birth country required I have sex change surgery to change my birth documents, which I did. I have no GRC as I've never needed a GRC. They didn't even exist at the time.

Your beliefs do not reflect my experience. It is your choice to maintain your beliefs. I will retain my own.

Good luck. Maybe they will listen to you. They have not listened to a single female person who doesn’t agree with them on this board so far.

Unfortunately, your imagination is wrong and some women will see you as your natal sex and immediately be denied that sense of safety, dignity and privacy that you are claiming.

The argument goes that it is that woman's fault for being a bigot...

It doesn't matter wether 1% or 99% of women correctly identify your sex, you are stealing from them and this is not acceptable.

... and because she's a bigot, she doesn't deserve what has been stolen from her.

It's catch-22: if you the kind of woman who feels strongly that the presence of men is an invasion of privacy then you're the kind of woman who doesn't deserve privacy.

If I understand you correctly @onepostwonder, you believe that as a result of the surgery and hormone treatment that you have had, combined with possession of a GRC, you are as much a woman as any adult born female. Following on from this you believe that you should be afforded the safety, privacy and dignity provided by women's single sex spaces and services. You cannot or will not imagine the possibility that any biological woman would see you as male. Unfortunately, your imagination is wrong and some women will see you as your natal sex and immediately be denied that sense of safety, dignity and privacy that you are claiming. It doesn't matter wether 1% or 99% of women correctly identify your sex, you are stealing from them and this is not acceptable.

Please, please, please consider those women who know that you are a man and stay out of our single sex spaces and services?

“How many of those 'trans women' have GRCs? How many of them were post transition, well established in their lives?”

You are the one who is gatekeeping who is and is not transgender. You are the one demanding ‘context’ so you can dismiss statistics.

And yet…. It is all completely irrelevant really, because male people remain male all their lives. There is no magic that happens if they have a cavity sewn into their groin. They are still male and they still seem to commit crime in the pattern of the general male population.

There is no ‘case by case’ scenario that fully protects female people as they need to be protected. Full exclusion of all male people.

Strong Safeguarding demands no exceptions are made of a sex class. History has taught us this. Case by case is a safeguarding fail for female people.

What nonsense.

Just admit that you don't care about women's rights and move on - it's completely obvious.

Why should women have to put up with men in their single sex spaces because you think men's desires are more important than women's rights and dignity?

Maybe I don't spend all my hours obsessing about trans people?

Allow me a moment of irony at hearing this by a trans-identifying person, posting about trans identifying people.

Some things I've noticed about the people you're debating with: they are informed, they do think carefully about what they believe, they do do the research, they follow the logical line of reasoning, and they stand behind their conclusions.

That's why it's hard to tear down the TERF point of view, and the TRA arguments fall apart as soon s you look at them.

Maybe I don't spend all my hours obsessing about trans people?

There are other people who spend time refuting the bad faith data and untwisting hate speech. I'm sure you're already familiar with them.

I've presented thoughts that accomodate the heterogeneity of trans people today within my beliefs.

I know my beliefs and experience are heretical in the gender critical religion. Believe me, I've seen many examples of how our lives and existence must be excoriated by its followers.

Trans people are not 'a trans.'

Trans people end up as 'collateral damage' far more often than non trans people.

Gender critical absolutism alienates people more than they realise.

How many of those 'trans women' have GRCs? How many of them were post transition, well established in their lives?

Quoting context-free justice statistics does not represent any meaningful data about non-incarcerated trans people.

Trans women are not exceptions. This is your belief that trans women are men. Trans people and trans supportive people do not 'want men in women's facilities.'