How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

To clarify: When i say 'race critical' I am not referring to critical race theory I am referring to race realists.

A lot of what I've read this week has shown me that there is a lot of flat honest hate against trans women. I suspect trans men are seen as acceptable because they are seen as cute furry women, or something just as condescending.

I ultimately have come to the conclusion thus far that gender critical people are coming from the same place as race critical people. There is nothing that will ever convince them that trans people are real people.

I don't feel your fellow travelers universally share your support of trans people.

That's unfortunate. Maybe then you should spend more time listening to what they say and reading what they write, instead of telling them how wrong they are because they have a perspective different to yours.

The presence of trans people does not diminish rights. The presence of trans children is not damage. The existence of trans women is not misogyny.

Assuming any of those things (trans people, trans children, trans women - whatever they may be) do actually exist, it's not to that existence that anyone objects.

I don't feel your fellow travelers universally share your support of trans people.

The presence of trans people does not diminish rights. The presence of trans children is not damage. The existence of trans women is not misogyny.

Slightly off the original topic but this is a great article about how gender ideology is a product of the patriarchy and wouldn't have flourished without it:

https://open.substack.com/pub/culturewarblues/p/on-woman-as-other?utmsource=share&utmmedium=android&r=1gw285

As such, it is not the same to many women as simply disagreeing about religion or other politics. This is a movement that literally sees us as reflective surfaces to show men the image that they want to be and respond to them as they demand to be responded to, as other, as merely support humans and denies us the words with which to describe our experiences and our oppression.

OP only you know what you can put up with in the interests of keeping the peace and also what those relationships mean to you. A tricky balance for sure.

(And sorry but I keep reading your username as 'fannycrab' 😱😆 )

Edit for clarity/typos

Dog forbid a trans person be able to live a life free of terror, scorn and threats due to laws and programs introduced 10 years ago.

We all share the ambition that trans identifying people should be able to live a life free of terror, scorn and threats. We would like - no, we demand - that be done without the misogyny, damage to women's rights, and damage to children that has happened either as a side-effect or as the direct purpose of such law and programmes.

In answer to the original question, I’ve had a few discussions with ds but he doesn’t really ‘get it’ from a female perspective.

However, also have a family member who has become trans but not had any conversations with them (as don’t live locally). I’m actually curious as to why they have changed their name, image etc, as they seemed to have gone from a hundred percent straight, to trans overnight.

Dog forbid a trans person be able to live a life free of terror, scorn and threats due to laws and programs introduced 10 years ago.

Every interest group has their boots on legislators necks. From what I've noticed, there seems to be more men working to remove boots than women.

It wasn’t bad faith; I was merely pointing out that your sauce for the goose is my sauce for the gander.

Nobody is suggesting trans identifying people control interest rates or the price of bread, but activists have very much had their boots on the necks of legislators and policy makers across the globe in recent years. Through the hard work of a lot of women those boots are being gradually removed.

I was making the point that what you assume can only apply to trans identifying people applies to women too.

Oh, believe me when I say I half guessed you would intentionally misread the statement as referring to misogyny. It's part of the automatic assumption that bad faith will be preserved at any cost.

In many ways they have done, for the last ten or fifteen years, and still do.

Trans people absolutely do not control society. Even if it were true, the 'many ways' are selective, contextually minor in comparison with all the other concerns of the world and do not represent societal level dominance of any cultural value.

I am learning why you could only believe this, but no. Trans people;

I was making the point that what you assume can only apply to trans identifying people applies to women too.

The general cultural support for eradication of trans people has been diminishing of late.

That's not my perception. My perception is that more and more people are waking up to the profoundly misgynistic underpinnings of TWAW, and are saying 'no, thanks'.

Trans people (men and women) do not control society.

In many ways they have done, for the last ten or fifteen years, and still do.

Surely you're talking about women, there

I am learning why you could only believe this, but no. Trans people; both men and women have been and continue to be mocked, removed and killed by non-trans men and women.

The general cultural support for eradication of trans people has been diminishing of late. It seems this disturbs the happiness of gender critical people to no end and are trying to remove any official public accommodation made to trans people. White supremacists try to remove any official public accommodation made to people of colour. Sadly they are succeeding in the US and may arrive here through Reform.

Trans people (men and women) do not control society. Trans people are not a conspiracy of men.

Thankfully ours know the difference between gender and sex. We all agree it’s absolutely fine to change names, wear different clothes, even have surgery but you can’t change chromosomes. We don’t treat trans relative with anything but respect but equally dd and her team refused to play a team with a trans player

Hi. I'm onepostwonder. I am a trans woman. Other than my first post, i have been here trying to understand gender critical people by sharing experiences from my more than 40 years as a trans child and adult.

There is no parallel in comparing a group that has been subject to historic hate and violence from socially dominant groups vocally (and with provocative signs) challenging the maligning efforts of socially dominant groups.

Surely you're talking about women, there - when you talk about "groups subject to hate and violence from socially dominant groups" - aren't you?

I genuinely don't think your point is as strong as you think it is.

You believe..

I don't find it helpful when people tell me what I believe. They're usually posting a straw man about what I think, so they can attack it. I don't see anything different happening here.

If anyone on this thread hasn't come across onepostwonder before, I strongly recommend looking back at their previous posts on other threads.

There is no parallel in comparing a group that has been subject to historic hate and violence from socially dominant groups vocally (and with provocative signs) challenging the maligning efforts of socially dominant groups.

You believe trans people are some kind of conspiracy created by male supremacists. This belief does no one but men any favours.

Those are a couple signs in a protest.

I can find you many many more very disturbing photographs and posts online. How many would you like?

I think the parallel being drawn is that trans activism is profoundly unaccepting of different opinions and is, in it's own way, an exclusionist and very much a male supremacist movement.

Lots and lots of male supremacist cultures un-person women, kill women with impunity.

Obviously there are differences, but there are similarities, too.

Those are a couple signs in a protest.

How many non-trans people have been systematically un-personed and killed by a majority-trans culture? Ever? At any time like say white supremacist cultures?

In what world do the pride/trans people map as the "White Pride" marchers in this argument?

Well...

(I'm sure the images will be along shortly).

I feel extremely strongly about it too but I’m not going to cut off my DS and not have a relationship with him. He didn’t want to see me for a bit because he was so angry about my GC views, but changed his mind and conceded we didn’t have to agree on it. If I’d been hardline and oppositional about it that might not have happened. He’s young, having a bit of an identity crisis and his brain has some maturing still to do - it’s possible he’ll come through it and gain new perspectives, or be peaked by a RL situation as many are. And it’s possible he won’t, but I’m his mum and want to be there for him either way if I can.

I also have a family member who’s a TIF and has completely cut off from me. I wasn’t abusive, rude or mocking about anything, I just asked if a mastectomy was the best idea and calmly said I wouldn’t be requiring my young DC to mis-sex anyone (including the TM’s TW partner) as I felt that was unfair on them. We had an email exchange where I explained why and asked simple questions like if you can self-ID sex why doesn’t that apply to ethnicity and age which actually are a spectrum. She couldn’t answer. She also spouted a lot of misinformed stuff such as “taking hormones makes you like an intersex person”. Now I am OK with this relative having no contact with me but I didn’t initiate it and one reason for that is that these are often vulnerable people like my relative (ND, history of trauma) who are seeking a way to feel better about themselves and ultimately transitioning rarely achieves that, plus it tends to cause more harm. But they cut out anyone who doesn’t agree and surround themselves with GI believers. I think it’s useful to know there’s a GC person somewhere in your life if you ever need someone to turn to, if you do come to the point of detransitioning or questioning the whole shebang.

Finally I’m never 100% fixed in my views. I think I’m right about this based on evidence, reason and logic and a lot of thought and debate, but if genuine evidence came along to change my mind I hope I’d be open to it.

Yes it is important we have relationships with people we disagree with. It’s not important to have relationships with race supremacists, conspiracy theorists or people who think women can have a penis. They can’t. It’s as idiotic as being friends with someone who insists 2+2 =giraffe.

its giving this idea space to exist that’s the problem. Don’t.

OP, what would your rection be if your ex was taking your child to white pride marches?

I would hope her reaction would be anger, concern and more.

Would you be as gentle and conceding as you seem to feel you need to be in this context - or would you say outright to your daughter that you disapprove fundamentally of this, that you regret she is being taken to these events, and that you think these marches are deplorable? Because that’s how I see taking a child on trans pride marches - only involving hatred of women, and male supremacy, rather than ethnic supremacy.

Personally, I wouldn't try this analogy with a relative who has even the smallest relationship with LGBTQ people. The power dynamics are incredibly messed up here. In what world do the pride/trans people map as the "White Pride" marchers in this argument?

Was it after the trans countries started to separate non-trans people into camps, then deport and execute them?

Was it after the trans countries enacted generations of laws that removed non-trans people from society and its services?

Was it after the trans gangs tortured and killed the loudest non-trans people fighting for the same rights as trans people?

Was it after the gangs of trans people burned trans imagery on people's properties?

But you cannot live this way in a family. All you will do is destroy your relationships.

That kind of thing is part of what has allowed this to become so entrenched. People tear into then cut off even their family, not to mention friends, who don't toe the trans line. And then those people are completely demonised.

It's important for society that we can have relationships with people we have strong differences with.

Agree with screaming. The majority of kids aren’t interested in GI it’s more for the marginalised teens. Neither of mine or any of their friends or show any interest frankly. They do want single sex spaces though. The majority call this group “the they / thems” with a slight eyeroll.