"A woman who is trans"

I understand why but I really hope you don’t

Every one of us has been raised and lives in a world soaked in sexism. Its the water we swim in. It can be very hard to even discern it because the status of males as more important than women is baked into so many things.

Women on here resist it by just centering women.

It isnt always easy. And that in itself is an object lesson.

It was uncalled for IMO @Taztoy. Women should not be told to rein it in so some men can waffle on about themselves. Not in the real world and definitely not here.

If because I used that phrase and your post is aimed at me, you couldn’t be more wrong.

I was told I’d completely misinterpreted what was said.

im autistic and sometimes I do get it wrong.

but please can someone tell me what I misinterpreted here?

Wow! I did see that. But remember “all opinions are equal”, unless you’re a woman objecting to men taking over a feminist thread obviously 😞😞😞😞

"It's the push me/pull you aspect of 'you might just be able to persuade me if I can talk about myself and my feelings in your space for long enough'. It happens a lot."

Yes. And when you see the pattern, it is easy to identify.

I should imagine they matter to everyone.
All opinions are equal.

However, how to respond to those opinions is down to the individual.

I want to ask questions of people that have vastly differing views to mine. Not to be converted to their way of thinking but to understand why they feel as they do.

I just want to point out. This is what was said to me. After I’d withdrawn by saying “thank you for your honesty”.

** Hiya i have no right to tell you not to express how you feel, and you have been clear and articulate.
Having said that i wonder if it is possible to step back a bit here.
this to my knowledge is the first time that we have seen a conversation like this on here, one TIM to another.
i think it would be good to let it run, as women we need TIM who are willing to start conversations about accepting they are not women.
I do believe that there is such a thing as body dysmorphia, and that those who don't want to attack women’s rights should find a place to explore this.
I don't think we should be support animals, but there is no place else for them as yet, that is as safe as here.
And yes they have committed offences, but are peaking in some way.

is it possible for me to step back to let the conversation between the two men run.

if that isn’t sit down shut up and let the men speak what the fuck is it?

Agreed.

I can understand some women, especially maybe those more new to the issue, being interested in watching a real life peaking of a dyed in the wool TRA. An enlightenment that their logic, coherence and rationality has generated.

But, frankly, I don't think for a single second they are. This isn't a rare occurrence. It's the push me/pull you aspect of 'you might just be able to persuade me if I can talk about myself and my feelings in your space for long enough'. It happens a lot.

Some men's embryonic guilt at fucking women over leads them here to have a little bit of mental wanking to see whether or not they can justify it.

Although, mostly, two weeks later they come back, even more cemented in their determination to enter women's spaces.

It never seems to occur to them that banging on about it on here is exactly that.

The irony of wondering whether or not you're doing the right thing, by doing that exact thing.

This board is not a playground for men to chat about whether or not they're right in fucking women over. And any man who thinks it is, in my opinion, could not be further from peaking in real life.

To whom?

This 100%. I would rather have you on this thread than 100 men

I know. You did nothing wrong. Don't leave! You have valid experience to give.

I didn’t even ask them to leave. Or stop talking to each other.

It seems Turtle may be understanding some things now. But it's unsurprising it took a fellow male to make them understand.

I think our issue, and that this thread shows, is that these spaces are our (female) spaces. The males are the interlopers, the invaders. There is a lack of respect. If you were going to visit spaces of a native space, such natives in Canada or in the Indigenous Aboriginals in Australia, would you just.... barge in, and not request permission? Would you not show respect to the original owners? Women did not even invite these men in, they just barged in, pushing us aside, then sneered at us when we said NO. And they truly don't understand the disrespect, the hurt they've shown us? The trauma they have caused? You are a guest (and not even that) in a space. You show respect. You don't act like you own it and deserve to be there. If you are a white person, you wouldn't barge into a BLM or NAACP meeting and expect to be allowed in AND allowed to speak AND use the facilities as if you were entitled to it. You are meek, respectful, considerate, and leave if/when asked. That's proper human behaviour. The same goes for males in female spaces where women and girls are vulnerable. And where you know DV victims, rape victims, and various trauma victims are. If you are raised with compassion, basic human decency and consideration, you know you don't enter that space unless invited by the original owners. And leave if asked to, while shown consideration and respect.

Theres at least two men and some women who have managed to make this thread a performance. Its become a fake therapy session where two men are supposedly coming to terms with their feelings, while some women are gently encouraging the discussion and sush-ing other women in case they frighten them off.

I know threads evolve, and its happened countless times before. But its not real, we arent converting anyone. He's convinced he passes, convinced he isn’t causes any distress to women and girls, convinced his idea of being a woman is deep and real. At best, hes using MN as proof he isnt a man otherwise why would he be embraced as much as he is?

And he's managed to split women into those who support him and those who are mean and don't.

@Hedgehogforshort Taztoy was not stopping the 2 TW from speaking or posting. Often threads have 3 or 4 different conversations going on at the same time. You could have scrolled past their posts. There is no reason Taztoy had to stop posting, her posts were concurrent and separate from the TWs. You really should have not said anything, and you've caused trouble now.

Turtle does have a 'safe space'. Turtle has a real life where he is surrounded by friends and family who constantly by word and behaviour tell him he is a woman.
He feels so safe that his opening contribution was to tell us he thinks disclosing he is trans is irrelevant, as he is simply a woman.
Turtle will leave this board and return to his circle of affirmation. And next time Turtle wishes to use the toilet, these people are not going to support him to overcome his 'dread' and feelings of 'indignity' to use the mens. They are going to tell him it's ridiculous for someone who looks so womanly not to use the ladies, that of course he's a woman. To stay away from the bigots on MN who seek only to prevent him existing. That the other TW on the board has 'internalised transphobia' or is a terf plant.
With all that weight on one side, I'd be extremely surprised if Turtle doesn't return to the comfort of his preferred stance, so the chances of change being achieved I think are slim. Certainly not high enough to off set telling other women to back off so we can all witness the drama of a real time 'peaking'.

This, exactly.

“If there was the intention to engage in good faith, it was giving very mixed signals.”

meaning the communication style was giving mixed signals, but this is a clumsy sentence.

Thank you @Namelessnelly that’s kind of you to say

it’s just a different tactic now. Another side of the same coin.

operstion let them speak working but not just quite in the intended way.

Aww I am sorry. I always appreciate your posts and the questions you ask. I’m just annoyed that once again men are shutting women up. Where were all these #bekinders and “let the men chat” when Tandora and Howse were minimising rape victims and traumatised women?

I could see exactly what was being done. I’m going to finish out this thread and then I’m done.

There’s none so blind and all that.

I don’t have the bandwidth to continue.

I think that the discussion has revolved around Turtle somewhat and it can be said that is centring Turtle in that way.

I also have mixed feelings about that because Turtle’s style of communication has been clearly snide at times. Even so, women have patiently persisted in posting replies at length with detailed perspectives and have asked pertinent questions to ascertain what Turtle thinks. Questions very often ignored while Turtle then asks new ones.

I believe that TroubledWaters picked up that communication feature too and commented on it. If there was the intention to engage in good faith, it was giving very mixed signals. Mostly it felt like a nightly drive by ‘whataboutery’ session aimed at finding an aspect that would give permission to access provisions not meant for male people.

This is an open site and there really is no restriction on who posts here. However, it is an example of utilising women as resources - either for information or as sounding boards for his benefit and, potentially for a degree, as some aspect of therapeutic resource.

Those of us who continued interaction accepted this, but only if they recognised it. I am not sure all female posters did recognise it. It also doesn’t mean that Turtle recognised he was doing it either. Perhaps though, this is the source of frustration that women responded to. I wonder….

In that way, this thread became a live demonstration of the dynamics some of us were discussing.

In saying that, I hope that Cautious and Taz stay on the board as this is a board where women’s perspectives should be heard and discussion had.

It's like a different type of dog that meows.