GLP are suing Virgin Active

policy on bathrooms and changing rooms.

Bathrooms? Is that like communal baths? I think they mean toilets.

Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned

No it wasn't, but Stonewall, the head of EHRC at the time, (past executive of Stonewall) and others wilfully misinterpreted the law and LIED to people. Not women's fault.

"Couldn’t the same argument be made about trans people use the they want? You might be uncomfortable when you see a trans women in your toilet, but you can’t expect to never feel uncomfortable."

Well no, of course the same argument can't be made (unless you want to look like a complete fool), because it's the law that males stay out of female single sex spaces, and that is because of the fact (not a feeling - based on data and other evidence) that females are at risk of harm when males are allowed in these spaces.

Trans women are not expected to stay out of female single sex spaces because they are trans. They are expected to stay out because they are male. Trans men, who are biologically female, are welcome. It's not a trans-exclusive space, it's a male-exclusive space and that is mandated in law, for very good reason.

"Let’s not forget that legal situation was different when most people transitioned"

It wasn't, actually. The law hasn't changed, the Supreme Court just clarified the meaning of the existing laws. It was lies told by the likes of Stonewall that led some trans people to believe they could go into the spaces that aren't for them. It has left some of them in a situation they're not happy with, of course, but that doesn't mean we should break the law.

what lengths?
most transwomen don't have any surgery, taking cross sex hormones isn't particularly onerous i think.
They have a clear choice: they can use the facilities that match their sex, or they can petition the gym to provide them with a separate space

They are men.

As the law stands, it’s not discrimination (thankfully).

I could go into all manner of reasons why I think this is an entirely correct stance for VA to take, but thanks to the Supreme Court I don’t need to.

What will be interesting with this case is seeing whether the court* says that providers of services must offer additional spaces for those who refuse to use the spaces designated for their sex.

*Which court, do we know? Also, if this ever gets to court.

Looks like the GLP want to log some billable hours

Did you miss the bit where the UKs highest Court said that providing a Woman only space to be used by females and a Men Only space to be used by males is fine.

Or are these individuals claiming that the Act says that service providers must provide a extra set of fourth spaces?

Btw my ( David Lloyd) gym has a solution that would work. You access poolside stuff via the two changing rooms, but there is also a disabled lift and disabled changing room which is at the other end of the pool - you get into it via the gym. I can just imagine what trans members would say if they were offered that!

Well then I guess it's up to them to lobby Virgin Active and others for a third space and for Virgin Active to decide whether they wish to accommodate that.

I'm all for third spaces where practical, but let's not forget that we all of us feel 'uncomfortable' at various points and in various contexts in life, and there's no right to sail through life never having to confront any discomfort. If you choose to transition your gender, then there are going to be some consequences of that that are different to if you don't. That's part of what needs to be taken into consideration when making that decision, surely?

'Third spaces' have always been the obvious practical solution, but most trans activists and allies decry them saying that they are 'othering'.

So they are saying it's about access to the poolside stuff, not using a specific changing room because of sex. Does that mean they have given up on the changing room usage and are going for this issue instead?

But how do they imagine trans people change for these facilities? Do they think they arrive already in their costume? Where do they leave their possessions while swimming? And how do they shower / dry themselves afterwards if they aren't using the changing room?

Errr whot?

To use the pool /sauna the user will need to change out of outdoor clothing and store said clothing in an approved space?

Or is some dirty sod looking for a special setup where she/he is allowed to use outdoor clothing in these areas?

That's is just focusing on the person with the trans identity/cross sex identity, though. Public spaces are not predicated on individual feelings, but on generally recognised categories, boundaries and rules.

Why wouldn't they feel comfortable in the male changing rooms, do you think? I'm sure most men would just arch their eyebrows and then quietly get on with it.

Why would you think that women might feel comfortable changing with a man dressed or 'presenting' as a woman? Personally, I'd find it far more insidious than a man who had accidentally entered the women's changing area and then apologised, before retreating.

So you don't give a fuck about how women and girls feel - OK. At last Virgin are following the law. As for GLP - grifters gotta grift

Very interesting reasoning. Do any lawyers on here have a view?

If the other men in the men’s changing rooms are hostile, that should be addressed with them. No trans person should be made to feel unwelcome or like they don’t belong in the space for their sex, no matter how they present.

This idea that trans identifying men will get hassled by other men in the changing rooms is just nonsense. As long as they don’t make a song and dance of things, but just get on with changing like every other man in there does, then nobody will say a thing.

Blokes do NOT look at other men whilst changing, it’s absolutely the opposite. The unwritten rule is that you don’t look / stare. So trans identifying men don’t need a third space. They just need to crack on using the area reserved for their sex.

What’s the issue here? Surely they can enter via the changing room for their biological sex?