GLP are suing Virgin Active

I care as much about them feeling comfortable as they do about women feeling comfortable.

We women are told over and over ‘I don’t know why you have a problem sharing with men, just get on with it’. They can do that.

Transwoman are men though. As a woman I’m far more comfortable with everyone being restricted to changing rooms of their own sex than having random Tim’s using the ladies for validation.

Would it be rude of me to point out a man in a dress walking into a changing room soon becomes a man not in a dress when he gets changed. So he would be at no risk from any other men, also getting changed in said changing room, any more than an man is a risk to any other men.

Also very much misses the point that it's not women's problem to solve.

And after the last few years of abuse and threats and contempt, I'm afraid the TRAs have rather used up all my sympathy for sad men not getting what they want. I'm with Germaine.

This is about following the law. It's not about how you think some trans identifying men might feel about using sex appropriate facilities.

@ByGreatGreenWriter or @ByGreatGreenWritter (if you forget your password you can just ask for a reset email you know)
If you are Jolyon or a GLP staffer then you need to amend that letter before action because you've had a C&P fail. Get off insta/tiktok/bluesky and proofread your documents properly, it's only 20 odd pages. Talk about stealing a living.

Because they are men? Transwomen are men, it says so on the tin.

Reddit's r/transgenderuk has been speculating that Jolly has advance notice of the EHRC guidance challenge decision and has won, hence this action.

You've made me wonder whether the first part is true, but 'oh look, a squirrel' is being deployed.

Unless you are a woman - but only if your TiF looks do not cause alarm - the SC covered this one and said that such TiF cannot use female facilities. But presume if they pass that well they will be fine going through the mens? And would want to?

You know, I'm really uncomfortable (heh) with the idea that trans people must be made comfortable in any situation. Why should we? No other group is guaranteed to feel comfortable at all times, so why should trans people get special privileges on that basis? We're not royalty. We're people who made a choice, and that choice will sometimes have uncomfortable consequences. It's our responsibility to shoulder those consequences, not expect other people to do it for us while we, what, cry in a corner?

So I guess, basically, I'm uncomfortable with this infantilisation of trans people.

Then he wont be getting much help from here as were telling them to use the facilities for their sex.
The fox killer just doesn't release quite how pissed off with his bullshit the general public are with the excesses of the trans community.

What you are calling 'gender neutral' is actually a mixed sex/unisex facility that anyone can use. And as you imply unisex facilities already do exist is many places, Most often it is a single occupancy room.

Society cannot create spaces for every single personal preference. When discrete facilities are required that tends to be on the basis of an obvious and identifiable characteristic, such as 'Sex' or 'Disability'. Toilet facilities, changing rooms and sporting categories are not predicated on personal identity or feelings about the self.

Because they are men and women don’t want them in their changing room.

The GRA was created to serve certain purposes at a different time. Before gay marriage equality and before the adevnt of 'gender identity' such as we now know it. Repealing it and replacing it with something more appropriate would create gretaer clarity for everyone and would also iron out inconsistencies in its application alongside other protected characteristics.

The right to feel comfortable isn’t enshrined. In law I don’t think.

You are correct and it's worth reinforcing the point that while Virgin Active has a policty that everyone should feel comfortable, it's not practical for every customer to be made to feel that way.

Questions of harassment, for example, are raised in the letter before action that the GLP has published, and they gloss over the fact that for treatiment of someone to be harassment it has to be reasonable for the complainant to have perceived the treatment that way. I think there's a strong argument that where someone is treated a particular way in order to avoid breaking a law it must de facto be unreasonable for them to perceive it as harassment.

I wondered this - there are no cubicles so no where for any privacy - at all.. some people wouldn’t like this.

It’s all down to how the gym was designed. My VA has a family changing zone also leading to the pool which is now labelled as “inclusive” with a wheelchair sign even though there are disabled changing facilities in both the men’s and women’s changing room (lockable room with shower toilet and space for changing).

The right to feel comfortable isn’t enshrined. In law I don’t think. Being a member of this gym isn’t a human need so they just go to another gym. One with the hell that is a changing village where everyone feels uncomfortable.

it’s part of being a woman i would suggest , feeling uncomfortable with men so it’s very accurately representing what women feel like. That must be a good thing?

That is just a feeling though and is about comfort rather than safety. You only have to look at the prison statistics to see it plain as day. 62% of the 245 trans identifying male prisoners are sex offenders. 62%!! In contrast, less than 10% of the 50 trans identifying female prisoners are sex offenders. The numbers are so small (5 or fewer) that they cannot give an accurate figure without potentially compromising the privacy of the individual(s) in question.

Trans identifying women in female spaces are not the dangerous gotcha that they are sometimes presented as. Yes sometimes their appearance will be so masculine as to render their being there impossible (refuges, trauma support groups), but for day to day scenarios, yes, they probably will make some women uncomfortable but that's not reason to exclude them.

I can’t imagine Jolyon being successful in honing anything other than than GLP’s bank accounts. If he spent time on here arguing his point he might realise why he keeps losing, but I imagine his ego would think he was still winning the debate.

It’s interesting, how some of the prominent legal voices seem so rubbish at winning cases or making coherent arguments. Strangio, RMW, Maugham…are they bad lawyers/solicitors barristers or is the material they have to work with just so poor, and they’re happy to look like losers?

Wouldn't surprise me if it was Jolyon himself starting these threads in an attempt to hone his argument.

Hence all the questions about 'reasonable solutions', etc.

But they do have access to appropriate spaces. For their sex. Like every other person.