GLP are suing Virgin Active

I'm a Virgin Active member and have used quite a few of their clubs in London (I work around the city and you can generally use clubs other than your 'home' one).

I've yet to be in a Virgin club where entrance to a pool is solely restricted to entering either from the male or female changing room - yes, that's usually the most convenient route, but there are always other entrances. Staff, swimming teachers, parents etc tend to enter via the neutral doors. And steam rooms, saunas and jacuzzis are in my experience situated in the pool area and are mixed sex. There may be clubs where there are separate men and women's steam rooms, but I've yet to see one, and suspect that if there's a club where that's the case, there's also a communal one in the pool area.

I see the locations of the specific clubs complained about by the GLP are redacted. Would love to know which ones they are and the actual layout. I am very sceptical.

I also note that the GLP argues that 'non binary trans man' QX should not be in the women's room as they are such an apparently manly manwoman they would make women uncomfortable, yet transwoman SP (who is an actual man that people have clocked) needs to change with women so he won't be uncomfortable and to hell with women.

The gym we went to had a family zone inside the men’s changing room with some cubicles. Otherwise just get changed quickly I guess. I didn’t like older boys (aged 8/9) staring at me getting changed esp when their own mums were fully clothed (as didn’t get into the water). I was endlessly complaining to staff (about boys over 8). Mums to precious to let them get changed on own in men’s.

I mean, it's quite bizarre, isn't it.

Women are worried about men in their spaces, and their many nefarious, dodgy and fetishistic reasons for it. And here those men are, being completely upfront about it. But you're not supposed to listen to them?

It's always been the same. The ones we're supposed to listen to are those who aren't saying anything.

And the converse is also true.

The only voices they want to hear are those from women with money and no power. And consequently no voice.

Burgdorf moaning about 'pussy hats' maybe?

But you told us to listen to trans voices. If not those voices, which voices would you like us to listen to?

There will still be 5 year old girls in the ladies, with their mothers, even if some of them are with their dads, which is a different issue. i don't know what the dads do in that case. Years ago Caitlin Moran wrote an article about her husband getting a bollocking when he took their daughters into the ladies changing room at the pool. They were horrified that he was attacked for being in there - is can't find the article now, which is interesting (she expected to be supported, I think, but most people were astonished at his audacity and lack of thought for the other users).

If my husband was going to be taking little girls swimming, we wouldn't join that club, as it doesn't offer family changing.

Re. 5 year old girls. Actually, when DH took DD swimming he had to take her to the men’s. There was a family zone but not all gyms have this. So a 5 year old girl is not a good arguement as until they are old enough to get changed on own (maybe 7/8?) they’d be with their fathers.

They are safe as it’s a members club - you’d get banned immediately.

Plenty of people don’t feel comfortable taking clothes off so get changed at home. My view is that so many people now don’t get changed in the gym the changing rooms should be designed with a larger unisex area just to serve as a cloakroom (eg I take off trackie trousers over shorts and my sweatshirt and coat and leave in locker). Could then be separate sex smaller areas for those who want to get showered or changed.

My hairdresser is gay and feels uncomfortable in the men's changing room so he changes at home. Plenty of people do this - they don't like communal facilities for whatever reason, but they accept it's their problem and they find a solution. My daughter is on the autistic spectrum and won't use communal showers for example.

Plenty of women won't be going to a gym which allows fully grown male bodied adults to change in front of them. My David Lloyd gym allows children in - can Jolyon really think that it's ok for 5 year girls to have to change alongside a man? Or, when the changing room is almost empty, you come out to find the only other person in there with you is a man?

Btw I simply cannot believe that men are going to beat up other customers in a health club. The supposed dangers to these trans women are utterly unfounded. These clubs have entry and exit systems, reception staff, cctv, cleaners in the changing rooms for much of the time. They are not usually the sort of gym macho body builders use - im sure trans women can be safe without having to use the ladies.

I agree with you. But the issue was “could this be a significant part of the mix”. I think the examples are prominent and common enough that they can’t be easily dismissed as irrelevant.

If these few examples are perverts (your term), it’s surely really bad luck that the first transwoman Pulitzer Prize winner, the editor of one of the main trans journals, the first prominent trans presenter on BBC all turn out to be perverts. At the very least it indicates an unwillingness to challenge attitudes that might usually be seen as delegitimizing in other circles.

Exactly! I have. That's why I'm a terf.

It falls in line with the fantasy that they ‘pass’

Why have mostvsocial structures evolve into a system of single sex spaces?

What is a worst case risk of a lone woman undressing in a private or semi-private space with an unknown man?

Why are TRA fighting to force women to share with men and are also fighting to remove some men from mens spaces?

I don't think you've listened to enough trans voices.

The judge in the Darlington nurses tribunal has just said that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to guard against discrimination, does not give men the right to access spaces belonging to women.

The fact that this even needs to be said is ludicrous.

But here we are.

I don't care if they don't feel comfortable in men's spaces.
They are men, so if it's a binary option, that's where they belong.

IANAL, but I thought the inclusion of 'gender reassignment' in the Equality Act only gave you protection from being treated differently to a non-gender-reassigned person of the same sex.

I can't see how any law can or should protect everyone from ever being a bit sad and uncomfortable.

Grace Lavery is an associate professor of English critical theory and gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley,

Andrea Long Chu is a writer and critic and has written for numerous publications including the New York Times.

Julia Serrano has a PhD in biochemistry and molecular bio physics and gives talks at numerous universities.

What sort of criteria do you think is necessary for representation of the trans community?

To be clear, fantasizing about something is very different from wanting that thing to happen.

But I really don’t think it’s a huge leap to suggest that thing, based on the candid writings of more than a few prominent TWs describing their experiences. Long Chu, Paris Lees, Torrey Peters, etc.

Now, that may not represent the median TW. And arguably there is no harm in any type of private fantasy.

But the shock at the suggestion that it could be a prominent motivator seems misplaced. Unless we think TWs own self-reports need to be sanitized or disbelieved when they become relevant to wider discussion.

I think you can listen to trans voices without generalising about the whole community based on a vocal minority of perverts. There are bad people in every group and I would find it equally wrong to generalise based on that actions of the few.

As you point out, we can only go on what individuals say.

Andrea Long Chu the male trans identifying author of a book called 'Females' says that getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.

Or there's Grace Lavery, the male trans identifying academic and author

"There is something about being treated like a piece of shit by men that feels like affirmation itself ... a cry of delight from the deepest cavern of my breast. To be the victim of honest undisguised sexism possesses an exhilarating vitality".

Or Julia Serrano, trans identified male author of Whipping Girl

"While I never really believed the cliche about women being good for only one thing, I found that sentiment kept creeping into my fantasies.

I would imagine being sold into sex slavery and having strange men take advantage of me".

Not really much of a leap, to be honest.

You prompted me to go back to my reading though.

I am curious whether you also see wanting to be sexually harassed and objectified as a “vile” thing to be accused of?

Because that one does seem very well-attested from prominent and feted TW authors.

This feels a bit like “listen to trans voices… no, not those ones!”

That’s one persons experience. It’s quite a leap to suggest TW fantasise about raped because it would make them a woman

No. No more than women want to be raped (ie not at all). But the state that women are in of having to fear that may be an important part of the validation of womanhood.

As I said, it hadn’t previously occurred to me, but it would explain why the claim about TW being in danger in men’s toilets seems so out of proportion to the actual risk.

I have countless times seen TW say things that imply that the danger is self-evident (“can you imagine what would happen”) and almost a certainty.

Which I always took to be a reference to being hit by thugs. Which, yes, is a risk, but not in most men’s loos most of the time.

Whereas as a reference to the risk of being leered at sexually, harassed or sexually assaulted becuase mistaken for a women it makes more sense because of the validation angle.

It's the difference between fantasy and reality. Rape is unconsenting. Fantasy is just fantasy. Paris Lees, for instance, claiming that being treated like a piece of meat was hot

I don’t think anyone wants someone to be raped, I think it’s part of their fantasy that they are vulnerable to men like actual women are because they wear nail varnish.
Women however won’t be in danger if they come into their spaces as they are all grand lads and wouldn’t lay a finger on a woman (even if there is plenty of evidence that isn’t true).

Are you genuinely suggesting trans women want to be raped for ‘validation’? I’ve read some vile things but this one really tops it.