Womens toilet with cubicles in the workplace

I don't see any hysteria over toilets, just (mainly) women who are being forced to defend the last line of privacy, dignity and safety of everyone.

As a 55 year old woman I have been on the receiving end of SA's verbally and physically in primary school, secondary school, at university, at work, in a family member's home, on the street, in pubs and clubs, on the beach, swimming pools, busses, trains etc and yes in toilets.

I've not complained about them at the time because......well what would be the point, the men in power were usually the ones I would have needed to complain to or there was a prevailing culture that when it comes down to he said/she said the men are believed, sometimes congratulated, and the women dismissed as over reacting, misunderstanding and yes being hysterical.

I'm sure if I took a straw poll of all the women I know that the same would be true for most of them and it is something that I passionately do not want for my daughter.

So the last line of safety, dignity etc is the toilets. Given that not all women have need- thankfully - of the other services that should remain single sex such as rape services and the female estate of the prison service the one common denominator is that we do need at times to use the toilet and if that line is crossed then women truly have no safe place in public and no voice.

But whatabout the sad men? Will nobody think of the sad men?!

Toilets, showers, and changing facilities are single sex. Breastfeeding facilities are only for the use of women who are lactating. Its been the law for years, and there's no good reason for employers to suddenly get angst ridden about managing their staff. There should already be policies in place to manage employee expectations and behaviours, they should use them.

I keep coming back to the simplicity argument: the men's/women's/accessble configuration works for 99point something% of the population, and has done so for decades.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and certainly not at the noisy behest of a tiny number of transpeople.

1974 is the big one, 1992 set out workplace rules in more detail. The 1974 one was because of several disasters including fires.
When I did fire evacuations as a teacher, I could nip into the girls or boys toilets and instantly see if anyone was left. In the new completely private doors-shut-when-not-in-use inclusive toilets it must take much more time than the 5 minutes we targeted to get everyone out the building.

That poster was clearly referring to The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, SI 1992/3004, Regulation 20(2)(c) that were cited in the Immediately preceeding post.

I was querying the poster that said “The health and safety at work 1992 act covers this” as the Health and Safety at Work Act was 1974, not 1992.

Good God.

Agreed. It's like the headline

"No Workhouse Orphans Recorded As Asking For Seconds Of Gruel Again Last Year!
Incontestably proving how satisfying and nourishing are the meal portions in all of our establishments. Please donate generously to your local Beadle and continue to support our humble, yet noble, piety."

We've all read about Sandie Peggie, the Darlington Nurses, Kathleen Stock at Sussex Uni, Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, Westminster Social Work, Leonardo UK etc. etc.

Why would any woman risk complaining?

Exactly. Which is why the research cited by PP about hospital complaints is so flawed. Its been drilled into us that any objection to TIM in women's spaces is the action of an unkind, out of touch bigot and is likely to get us harshly judged. Hardly surprising that ill vulnerable women in hospitals judge it wiser to keep quiet.
Complaints about the NHS are typically lower than actual rates of dissatisfaction anyway, as people tend to balance their negative experiences against appreciation for the care recieved, feel its wrong to complain in the context of having their life saved or illness managed, and believe they would be 'ungrateful' or wasting overstretched resources if they complained.
For more useful would be data on how many women would mind. But that's not a question the 'researchers' wanted the answer to.

Also In workplaces our mandatory training “teaches” us that it’s a disciplinary offence to complain.

in my workplace training one of the examples of something that we would be required to report was overhearing two members of staff discussing whether transwomen should be able to use female toilets.

I occasionally have to remind myself that posters who find women's biology icky, or their reaction hysterical, or simply don't get it, might well have a very good reason for that.

Absolutely not. Have you never worked with a creep?

There was one manager who liked to run meetings from his desk. He’d pull his ‘executive chair’ out to one side and tilt right back with his feet on his desk. Such a jolly, friendly, courteous bloke, who insisted that the ladies got to sit on the sofa, while the men perched around the office. One evening, we ladies went out together, and someone took a photo of us together on a sofa. It suddenly became blatantly obvious why Mr Manager insisted we sit on the sofa. None of us ever wore a pencil skirt to work again.

How would you complain about that?

How comfortable would you feel with that man in the women’s toilets?

And he was the least creepy of the creeps I have worked with.

Or as I know in the case I am aware of, will be told there is nothing the employer can do so the woman leaves.

It is the same story over and over. The women and girls face negative repercussions when they complain. They leave, they avoid, they are sacked, suspended, banned, ostracised and more.

That is the situation that the long term strategy has created. It is deliberately hostile to those who complain.

Yet we constantly get these derogatory posts from ignorant people or worse, those deliberately derogating and demonising people they disagree with.

I agree - it's the left-in-name-only lot (labour party, unions, most student politics) that are the main problem. The communists have been on our side from the start.

I don't know what 'hard left' these women align with. The Communist Party have been very clear about their sex realist position and commitment to sex based rights. Prioritising the wishes of a minority and the rights to individual liberty over the greater good is a hard liberal position. Not a hard left one.

There are plenty of examples of sexual assaults, and of placing hidden cameras, at work.

And the person sacked for making trouble will often be the woman who complains, not the man who attacked her.

That's awful. Although it seems that some of his crimes were in private homes, it's a shame that the public venues aren't listed. Women need to be aware what places offer dangerous voyeurs like him to operate unchallenged

You’d be fine with this guy in the next cubicle would you?

Picking up on ‘Sexual Harm Prevention Order which places a number of restrictions on him’

Many of these orders are that men are not to go near female toilets or unisex toilets.

Oh Numbersguy's post has been deleted. It's a pity when that happens, such crass stupidity should be left to stand for all to see.

Anyway, I'm copying this post from the "council gym" thread because it makes great points about why women don't complain. All credit to @FirmaTerra who wrote the post:

"It's also important to recognise that women being too scared to speak up isn't the only reason why incidences go unreported, at least in the moment. Here are others:

• they simply don't have the time to stop what they're doing and speak up/make a complaint, as they're in a rush to go to work/pick up their kids/meet someone etc.
• they have their children with them and don't want to alarm their children or put their children in an uncomfortable situation by speaking up.
• they want to speak up, but have no faith in anything being done about it and are resigned.
• they think everyone else around is fine with it and don't want to rock the boat."

And asking the question the other way round, if it's not an issue to recognise these men are not women when it comes to certain spaces, what's with the weird need to pretend they are women when it comes to the toilets?

Really, why on earth are we even seriously discussing in what situations it's reasonable to stop pretending men are women because they say they are? Why are we even in the position anyone thinks this is reasonable to pretend they are in the first place?

Take a step back and the reason all these questions are so hard is because they are trying to turn a falsehood into truth.

Whatever this "womanhood" is that trans women believe they have, whether it is real or not, it is never going to be the same thing as female biology, it doesn't bring the same physical and social needs, challenges and risks as female biology, it does not make trans women interchangeable with us, it does not even make trans women more like us than other men in any meaningful practical way, and all this stupid mess is just the unavoidable result trying to pretend something is true when it isn't.