Talking to non GC people

OP, to answer your question, if it's safe to do so, I do sometimes call out despicable hate, prejudice, and ignorance, whether it's racism, anti-Semitism, or trans hate. It's generally a waste of time since bigots never change and are generally wedded to their hatred, but still, there are times I find their views so repulsive that I have to do it. They generally blow their tops at being called out and will weaponise anything to tear you down, including lying about what's written in black and white, hoping that others won't read the actual exchange, and including lying about anything and everything.

It's noticeable how they don't engage with what you're saying at all, they simply attack you personally and are, cringingly, very quick to lose control. Which is not only an ineffective tactic but makes them look really thick. They sometimes remind me of the people on Jerry Springer. 🤣 I don't find this with intelligent, educated people. They tend to have a much better handle on themselves and they respond to the content. You can always tell a bigot because they respond to polite discourse by frothing at the mouth and going nuts. I guess they thin they should be able to hate minorities freely and others should just nod along with their disgusting far-right attitudes.

Hate of any kind is unacceptable. Many people are into power, control, and are unfulfilled abusers, basically. But the saddest thing of all is that often, it's themselves they hate.

Happy people don't hate others.

As long as I live, I'll never understand why some people despise others who are simply going about their lives and doing no harm to them whatsoever.

Because they are a minority group like the others.

Of course I denounce sexism in the strongest possible terms. I started to put it on the list but deleted it because I was talking about calling out hate when I feel safe to do so, and I don't generally feel safe starting an argument with a sexist man. Also because we were talking about minorities, and women aren't a minority.

Maaaate.

Oh dear, and so you ended up appearing to support sexism! How embarassing for you!

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

Because they are a minority group like the others.

I notice you didn't include sexists in your naughty list - no surprise there!

I personally don't think we should condone racism, genocide, anti semitism, Nazism or sexism. The last one is why I am a gender critical feminist.

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

Interesting that you mentioned “trans people” in your posts then.

@SoftBalletShoes

You do realise OP is asking how to talk to non-GC people from a GC perspective, right? Not the other way around...

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

To be clear, do you classify women who do not believe trans women to be women as "haters"?

Is the simple act of telling a person who claims to be the same as you that you consider the factors they assess as significant commonalities to be far less significant to your lived experience than the factors they assess as insignificant diiferences, by defintion an act of hate rather than simply telling the truth?

Is it, in short, an act of hate not to allow someone else to tell you who you are and how you should understand your own needs, risks and experiences?

@SoftBalletShoes

Do you genuinely believe that knowing there are two sexes and that people can't change sex is 'far-right' and 'hate'?

@financialcareerstuff

This poster is a great example of what women here have to put up with.

Compare and contrast.

I talk to gender critical people in the same way as I talk about it here.

I say no. For men to force their way in anywhere that women legally say no is a consent violation and those men are dangerous to women.

the law says men can’t enter
womens single sex spaces - women are entitled to those spaces. In my case it’s due to trauma, which I have already explained today and I really don’t want to have to do it again, but it can also be for cultural and / or religious reasons.

men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Trans identifying men are a subset of men and trans identifying women are a subset of men.

Finally, if trans identifying men are unsafe in men’s bathrooms, that’s a man problem. It isn’t for women to move up to accommodate those men.

I think people are beginning to realise the truth about what has been going on but find it really hard to say 'I've been so ignorant, I had no idea' let alone 'I've been wrong, and have actually been complicit in harming women's rights and children's health'.
So they qualify their backtracking with the implied criticism that, if only the discourse hadn't been so hateful, then of course they would have seen what was happening. I guess the more intelligent people consider themselves to be and the more they are used to virtue-signalling their feminism, the harder it is for them to backtrack without a swipe at the women who turned out to be right all along.

Can you explain WTAF this has to do with Sausagenbacon's OP ?

If hate now means 'to understand that mammals cannot change sex' (and not pretending that they can), then we need a new word that means 'to dislike someone or something very much.'

I think people are beginning to realise the truth about what has been going on but find it really hard to say 'I've been so ignorant, I had no idea' let alone 'I've been wrong, and have actually been complicit in harming women's rights and children's health'.
So they qualify their backtracking with the implied criticism that, if only the discourse hadn't been so hateful, then of course they would have seen what was happening. I guess the more intelligent people consider themselves to be and the more they are used to virtue-signalling their feminism, the harder it is for them to backtrack without a swipe at the women who turned out to be right all along.

I've been chatting to a few people recently about gender issues, and their opinion runs roughly like this ' we should all listen to each other, and not be so unpleasant. But of course, men shouldn't be in women's sports'
Which begs the question that, if GC people hadn't been 'unpleasant' men would have been firmly in women's sports.
So, should I be pleased that public opinion has shifted slightly, or should I be banging my head against the wall?

I am aware I have stepped on various bombs. Some things I knew were sensitive. Others were totally unexpected to me.

• 'Toilet' issue. This one I knew would be sensitive. I am grateful for the in depth information (especially @Keeptoiletssafe ), and many who have contributed thoughts, their experiences and thinking. I had not thought through in full and did not know the differences between various designs/ set ups. I do hear that this is an issue not only of safety but of comfort, privacy and dignity, and that many feel those needs extending into the wash area. And that all that is important, and yes I agree more important than other people's needs. I do understand and appreciate the rejection of 'quiet inclusion', while part of me still wishes I could cling onto it. So I feel more clarity with this issue - and indeed, better informed and more able to make the case for single sex toilets with others who would question it.
• The implication 'to be kind'. Though I didn't use those words, and don't think it was my intent - I understand the frustration, and the legacy of women being told to be kind, and I apologised, and do again for somewhat aligning with that. In a movement - regardless of who is protesting or fighting for what, I think there is strategic need for a variety of approaches from very fierce and unreasonable to conciliatory, empathetic and reflective. I believe both are needed at different points, with different audiences, to achieve different objectives. And I think women should be able to discuss that with each other. But yes, I agree, women being told to calm down/be kind when their rights are being infringed is unacceptable.
• bun fight - very unexpected and unintended. Didn't mean it as an insult, just as short hand for a debate that can become reactive - throwing out points and accusations, without much listening in either direction. I thought it was an uncontroversial thing to say that discussions on GC/Trans often end up like this. I think there has been a little of that in this thread, but that many, many of us have tried to hear and share information in depth.
• Asking for data on assaults. Totally unexpected. I now realise there is a history here of data wars, and the assumption on everybody's part seemed to be that I was demanding the data to prove there was no evidence of the problem or if there wasn't a big rise it didn't matter. Nope. I was thinking if there was evidence then it would be very useful in explaining to people and I would be able to understand the extent of the challenge. It is a great shame data is so poor and/or corrupted.
• The suspicion that I'm not who I say I am/ Trans Activist. Totally unexpected. It clearly happens to this board a lot - and that must be very tough and aggravating, making discussions very difficult to have. I did actually keep my normal username, partially so people could check my posting history. I've been here for years in other parts of the board - most frequently posting on threads supporting women trying to leave abusive relationships or trying to rebuild their lives after divorce/infidelity
• My cousin. I know there were lots of questions for specifics. But I don't think that is my information to share more on, as they are very private but I have absorbed the points people made around this. What I am trying to express, is that personal experiences and connections can create a powerful tension - as others have mentioned. I think they can distort or help to bring clarity, are distinct from policy needs, but can be one of many ingredients that inform them, if one's own experiences aren't used to invalidate others'.
• 'Middle ground'. I think there was some misunderstanding here. I was not advocating a middle ground in policy or the interpretation of sex. I was saying I was 'middle ground' - as in neither a Trans Activist, or a GC one. When I talked about 'celebrating shared ground' I was talking about celebrating what GC and non-signed up GC women can agree on - nothing to do with celebrating mixed sex spaces.
• Finally, I want to say that I maybe misunderstood this area of Mumsnet. I had understood this space to be like a stall set out for advocacy - with a desire and intention to engage, argue, broadcast, discuss with people passing by. But I think some have responded more like it is a space for GC women to meet with other GC women and support each other - ie more like a living room. I sincerely apologise if it is intended as the latter, which would make my entire participation totally inappropriate.

Over and out for now with thanks to everyone