Can I change my caste?

OP, I think most people understand your point in contrasting the Indian government’s efforts to protect the Dalits with the UK government’s efforts to avoid protecting women.

Your analogy is clear, especially in contrasting the two government’s attitudes to oppressors self-IDing as oppressed, which although illegal in both countries is widespread and accepted over here.

And @Tadpolesinponds still doesn't get it

No @Tadpolesinponds I don't want to talk about caste. I'm extremely familiar with the issues discussed on this board.

I still have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

Thank you @EmeraldRoulette.

You've articulated it better than me. I can't see how the Caste system is beneficial to feminism and women's rights in any way.

I’m sure you’re familiar with the concept of an analogy @TooBigForMyBoots

You are so completely misunderstanding the point that I give up

I bet that if a university in the UK set up a bursary for British-born Indians of the Dalit caste, within about 30 seconds a Brahmin would lie on the form to apply for it. India's certificates stop that.

@Tadpolesinponds I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make

However, I do feel that it was incredibly ill advised to make this sort of comparison, if that's what it is.

Actually, what the hell is it?!

The Indian govt doesn't enforce the caste system in a way that hurts people. The whole of Indian society does that, with or without the certificates, as demonstrated by the experience of Dalits working in the US. The whole of Indian society includes corrupt police officers and others who abuse the power they have from their jobs. The certificates are to gatekeep access to affirmative action measures intended to aid the Dalits.

It's akin to Wayne Couzins not needing to check Sara Everard's birth certificate prior to abducting her, but a bursary application for women asking for State-issued proof of being female.

Caste discrimination is a problem in the UK too.

https://www.dsnuk.org/caste-in-the-uk/

The OP's point is that govts can and do refuse to accept self-declaration about immutable characteristics. Caste, in the Indian context, is effectively an immutable characteristic. Govts can and do refuse to falsify legal documentation.

Indian caste is a striking example of an immutable characteristic that is invisible and can only be proved conclusively by examining someone's parentage (which doesn't in any way stop it from being used to discriminate), yet the Indian govt is determined to prevent people from falsifying it for gain and applies considerable due diligence prior to issuing a certificate.

By contrast, the British govt throws its hands up in the air and says "it's too hard" when asked to refuse to falsify sex. The Indian caste certificate example proves that the British govt is lying when it claims that it can't record sex honestly.

You didn't offend me @Tadpolesinponds.

I can see now that you are naive of the Caste system. It doesn't protect oppressed people. It protects wealthy, powerful men.

The Indian government's enforcement of Caste system is the antithesis of femism.

I did not intend this as any other comment on the caste system. This thread is about trans issues in the UK and the UK government.

The title of your thread is Can I change my Caste? Your OP is about the Indian government's enforcement of Caste. Why did you post it if you didn't want to comment on the Caste system in India?

What is it about the Indian Caste system that you want to see in the UK?

Fair enough if I've got it wrong.

What was the OP's point about the Caste system and what is happening in the UK?

The OP did. Others agreed with her that somehow the Indian Caste system is better than what women have now, in the UK.

Neither the OP nor anyone else has endorsed the caste system. Read the words that are actually there, not the ones that you think are there.

This would happen with or without the caste certificates, just as Wayne Couzins abused his police powers to rape and murder Sara Everard without checking her birth certificate first.

The whole of Indian society has caste baked into it. The Indian govt cannot abolish it by fiat.

You have mistaken PPs' recognition that the caste system exists for approval of its existence. No one is approving of it. We are approving of how the Indian govt is refusing to let Brahmins pretend to be Dalits to steal their affirmative action places.

The Caste system and its victims have nothing to do with Self ID, or the trans shitshow in the UK. IMO conflating them is the ultimate in minimising women's fundamental rights.

I didnt do that. The OP did. Others agreed with her that somehow the Indian Caste system is better than what women have now, in the UK.

It really isn't.

TooBig, I understand your dislike of the caste system, it’s an awful thing. But OP’s point is that, if a government wants people to stop obeying a set of unfair rules set up by people in power to oppress another set of people, the government can actually pass laws, and enforce them.

Yes, there will be resistance by the oppressors — high-caste Indians there, male sex fetishists and misogynists here. But a government that’s determined to end this oppression will not be intimidated by that, especially when a majority of the population opposes the oppression.

The issue is not about the merits or otherwise of the caste system. No one here is suggesting that the caste system is beneficial to anyone.

The point very much is self identification. People fake caste certificates to benefit from the affirmative action directed towards lower castes. To the extent that people who are entitled are finding it difficult to prove their eligibility. For example

https://theleaflet.in/affirmative-action/struggles-of-obtaining-caste-certificates-reflections-on-the-law-of-gujarat

I mean, the Indian government officially recognises three genders.
Also, as per a PP, caste is a "real" thing, not just a social construct. There are genetic differences between e.g. Brahmins and Dalits (though I realise these are probably due to centuries of marrying within ones own caste). Not saying that I agree with it as a system for ranking people's worth in society, any more than it would be right to rank people by their ethnicity. Just saying that it's more than merely a social construct.

"Higher" Castes beat, exploit, rape, enslave and murder "Lower" Castes because they can. And they know the Caste system will back them up and protect them on the basis that they were born better than their victims.

Government and law enforcement use the Caste system to subjugate and abuse in India dispite their words otherwise.

I see no reason why any feminist in the UK would think that anything about Indian Caste declaration policy is beneficial to UK people, Indian people but most importantly women.

Indian people do these things on the basis of caste despite the efforts of the Indian govt, not because of them

Have a read of the relevant part of the Indian Constitution.

The higher caste people would abuse the lower caste people whether the Indian govt issued the certificates or not. The higher caste people would be able to determine what caste someone is from without the certificate, in the same way that Northern Irish people use tells (e.g. Aitch versus Haitch to pronounce H, "what school did you go to?", what you call the city that straddles the Foyle estuary) to determine your sectarian allegiance. Indian tech workers in the USA figure this out about each other, to the detriment of the Dalits who thought leaving India would free them from all that crap.

The Indian govt uses the certificates to stop higher caste people from pretending to be lower caste when it suited them, because they cannot abolish caste by fiat.

The parallels with demands to remove sex markers from State ID and allow people to falsify sex markers are clear.

• Like with caste in India, sex cannot be abolished by fiat.
• Like with caste in India, the dominant sex will abuse the subordinate sex because the dominant sex can see who the members of the subordinate sex are.
• Like with caste in India, a responsible govt tries to level the playing field between oppressed and oppressor.
• Like with caste in India, the members of the dominant group will try to steal the levelling-up measures from the subordinate group.

The Indian govt saw that last point and nixed the Brahmins' ability to steal the levelling-up measures from the Dalits. But the British govt won't nix men's ability to steal women's levelling-up measures.

No. It serves to keep lower Caste people low. No matter how high they get. Indeed lower Caste people are beaten, raped, enslaved and murdered without impunity for having notions above their station. It is dangerous for them challenge their subjugation.

Caste declaration in India is more akin to Apartheid and the One Drop Rule. It is nothing like Self ID. It rules people out of humanity.