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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Another2Cats · 01/01/2026 18:20

Taytoface · 31/12/2025 00:13

I have a bit of a different view on the WI. I dont know what they offer in great detail, but does sex really matter in terms of what they offer, or does it matter because they describe themselves as the women's institute. If it is the former, then they should be single sex, if it is purely a descriptor, then they should be open to all comers, but should no longer fashion themselves as as women's institute, perhaps become the people who feel like women's institute (PFWI). What they can't do is have it both ways.

I'm a little late to reply to this - sorry.

"...but does sex really matter in terms of what they offer, or does it matter because they describe themselves as the women's institute."

What the WI offers is a separate space for women. Borrowing some arguments-

There are various rationales for the need for women-only spaces. These include:

1 Women have an interest in self-determination. The role of women in society has, historically, been disproportionately determined by others, that is, men. For this reason it is particularly important that women, without men - the ‘others’ who did all the previous determining - are able to decide matters of importance themselves. Women need spaces of their own in order to self-determine, but also, by the act of creating spaces in which to be inaccessible, women are also exercising self-determination.

Self determination particularly justifies exclusion in spaces where there is the chance for women to talk and raise consciousness. This allows women to talk openly about and debate issues of interest from a female view without the presence of men.

Indeed, it has been part of the WI’s constitution since at least 1948 to “[p]rovide for the fuller education of countrywomen in citizenship, in public questions both national and international, …”

The latest constitution puts it this way: “to advance the education of women and girls for the public benefit in all areas including (without limitation):
(i) local, national and international issues of political and social importance;”
.

2 Women also have an interest in respite from men; a break from male attitudes, expectations and behaviours. Women and men are generally socialised very differently, and this leads to differences in the average behaviour of women and men, which colours their interactions. Women are required to deal with these male attitudes, expectations and behaviours in mixed-sex spaces. Women-only spaces can provide an important respite from this.

There is no reason to think that transitioning (which does not necessarily involve hormones or surgery) would switch someone from demonstrating male-typical behaviour patterns to female-typical patterns. If trans-identifying men will bring some or all of these male-typical attitudes, expectations and behaviours into these spaces then that is, on its face, reason to exclude trans-identifying men from those spaces.

This rationale does not depend on it being the case that a particular male person would in fact bring male-socialised behaviours into a space. It is enough that women have to manage this possibility when men are around. Women-only spaces provide respite not just from certain sorts of behaviours, but from having to make contingency plans about what to do in light of certain sorts of behaviours - from being on guard.
.

3 Finally, it’s relevant that women established the WI themselves. Women funded, volunteered at, and ran the WI as services by women for women for the last 110 years. If other groups may benefit from access to such spaces this does not give them the automatic right to be included; such groups should do the same work that the women of the WI have done for the last 110 years and establish such spaces for themselves.

potpourree · 01/01/2026 17:28

Grammarnut · 01/01/2026 11:50

I thought the WI did exclude trans men because TMAM?

It previously did if it was going by gender identity, but if it is now female-only then I don't know how they could turn down a female person's membership, however they identify.

Szygy · 01/01/2026 12:01

@selffellatingouroborosofhate I’m confused too - so essentially the TWG head office is shutting itself down and telling branches that they’re on their own now? I believe the TWG allows in anyone who 'considers themselves to be a woman', don’t they, despite calling themselves a female-only org? So in light of the SC ruling, have they just…..taken fright and folded?
(Not a member, just curious, since they’ve managed to fly under the radar despite being the other big supposedly-female-only org next to the WI)

Grammarnut · 01/01/2026 11:50

potpourree · 30/12/2025 19:47

Yes, in their rush to trample on women, TRAs frequently erase the existence of trans men by pretending that female-only groups won't include them.

It's dishonest and sexist.

I thought the WI did exclude trans men because TMAM?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/01/2026 03:27

FirmaTerra · 31/12/2025 17:18

I'm sure you'd change your mind if you saw it cheekily peeking out from behind a pillar in your local gym's women's changing room Wink

Such a hilarious photo. Maybe the photographer was a TERF doing a subversive mission.

"No need for a scarf to hide your Adam's Apple, let's do this pose common commonly used by playful but shy middle aged ladies! es that's it, just your head peeking round the tree! Don't worry, it's giving cockette coquette rather than sinister!"

🤣

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 20:56

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 18:25

Most federated organisations provide insurance to the branches and, in providing an umbrella organisation, deal with all the trusteeship, charitable registration, constitution, etc legal bollocks so the branches don't have to.

To give an idea of what a comparable organisation will soon stop providing for its branches, see the members information pack at https://www.the-tg.com/closure.aspx

  • Insurance.
  • Model constitution, data protection policy, and other governance documentation.
  • A registered charity number to use when setting up bank accounts.
  • How-tos related to the objectives of the organisation.

If anyone on this thread is a Townswoman, I'm curious as to why TGHQ are closing down. It seems a shame because I'm not really a good fit for WI (too urban, not very domesticated) and I was waiting for the whole TWAW thing to blow over prior to looking for a women-only organisation to join. Townswomen's Guild looked like a better fit.

TGHQ Closure Information

TGHQ Closure Information

https://www.the-tg.com/closure.aspx

Heggettypeg · 31/12/2025 20:06

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 18:25

Most federated organisations provide insurance to the branches and, in providing an umbrella organisation, deal with all the trusteeship, charitable registration, constitution, etc legal bollocks so the branches don't have to.

That makes sense. Thanks.

LlynTegid · 31/12/2025 19:54

I could see there may be one or two branches who have trans women who they would not wish to exclude, and so could leave the national organisation. Not a widespread schism.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 19:52

Hedgehogforshort · 31/12/2025 18:58

Maybe i am a bit old fashioned (63) but i would feel totally uncomfortable at a meeting about women’s health with a bunch of people i do not know well, especially with older sisters.i can look on tinternet or NHS to find stuff like that out,

i would rather learn about gardening hacks, or how to cook a tunnocks cheese cake.

or maybe a class on art/ pottery or other such stuff.

Of to look for a WI near me to see what goes on there.

I'm not saying that women's health is the only thing the WI talk about. I'm saying that some branches will allocate all or part of a meeting to it. As a PP said, it can often be after a branch member has died of a female-specific illness.

tesseractor · 31/12/2025 19:49

JanesLittleGirl · 31/12/2025 19:32

The Heid Hiyins at NFWI really do not want to accept that there is no way to enable any form of TiM attendance without allowing any man the same level of attendance. They also know that any use of WI funds to allow this would be unlawful. This really grips their shit and they are failing desperately to find the magic solution. There isn't a magic solution and within the next few months they will accept it. Petra and his brethren will be ex-members, some people will be very sad and some will flounce. Then the WI will simply continue as a single sex association and charity.

I hope so , but I fear the damage will be done. Members will have left, and others will have been put off joining. As I’ve said I’m not sure how I can renew my membership in April with the current leadership.

I also worry about any discussions held at meetings - I fear it would be v divisive and/or that many will keep their heads down and not be prepared to speak up, given the messaging from national, and wanting to appear kind etc. Again leading to a loss of members.

If it comes up within my group I feel I will have to say something, but dread it, having had a very difficult time both with a family member and a group of friends over the issues. The line national have taken means that we’re labelled as unkind, nasty bigots by those in control, and speaking up publicly in opposition is hard, but I think this is finally my line in the sand and my head will have to go above the parapet.

Hedgehogforshort · 31/12/2025 19:44

Well i checked my local WI quite a big group and women of many ages, no sign of any men in all the photos, and no talks about body parts so am off to join, and maybe, climb up the ladder.

run hedgehog GIF by Puffin Rock
SwirlyGates · 31/12/2025 19:38

MooPointCowsOpinion · 30/12/2025 20:14

This is exactly the mindset that has women like you keen to strip search other women to check their genitals. A movement that decreases women’s rights hiding as a movement protecting them, standard. Now any woman or girl can be forced into a strip search when just trying to go to the toilet, join a club, join a sport - yay! That makes us safer from men!

Strange, the only people who ever suggest strip searching to determine sex are TRAs. Either they themselves can't actually tell the difference between men and women without one, or it's some kind of fetish.

JanesLittleGirl · 31/12/2025 19:32

The Heid Hiyins at NFWI really do not want to accept that there is no way to enable any form of TiM attendance without allowing any man the same level of attendance. They also know that any use of WI funds to allow this would be unlawful. This really grips their shit and they are failing desperately to find the magic solution. There isn't a magic solution and within the next few months they will accept it. Petra and his brethren will be ex-members, some people will be very sad and some will flounce. Then the WI will simply continue as a single sex association and charity.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 19:25

TheignT · 31/12/2025 19:04

Do you mean some men, I can't believe all men do.

See Rules Ten and Twelve.

Rule Ten: "Not all men are like that" is damage limitation PR. Men need to tell each other not to be disgusting pervs, not try to do PR to make themselves look better. Women shouldn't do PR for them.

Rule Twelve: It's always a man, not a woman, and we aren't bad for noting this.

Fingalscave · 31/12/2025 19:12

Then it won't be able to be called the WI if men are allowed to join, no matter what they call themselves or how they dress.

Greyskybluesky · 31/12/2025 19:09

TheignT · 31/12/2025 19:04

Do you mean some men, I can't believe all men do.

Obviously NAMALT.
Does that really need saying?

Greyskybluesky · 31/12/2025 19:07

Don't patronise me thank you @TheignT

TheignT · 31/12/2025 19:05

Greyskybluesky · 31/12/2025 18:28

Well you've got the answers now.
You were sneery about members being "bored to death".
Women's health talks save lives.

Again sitting round talking about your genitals is not the same as women's health talks. We are more than the sum of our genitals.

TheignT · 31/12/2025 19:04

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 31/12/2025 18:35

I'm British too. I picked up the top two definitions in my search result, one of which considered all the reproductive organs to be genitals, and the other didn't.

Men do get excited talking about women's genitals and some of them get excited about wearing tampons (you can guess where). I've seen men trading recipes for dark red ice cubes to insert so that the dark red meltwater stains a sanitary pad and the cold feels a bit like cramping. Perhaps consider whether that kind of man would be interested in attending a WI women's health talk, and consider why the women wouldn't want him there?

Do you mean some men, I can't believe all men do.

Zanzara · 31/12/2025 19:00

FirmaTerra · 30/12/2025 20:54

You’re peddling false ‘facts’ with a strong subtext of threat to scare or shame women into submission.

Indeed. It's right up there with the sisterly threats to rape women who disagree with TRAs.

Hedgehogforshort · 31/12/2025 18:58

Maybe i am a bit old fashioned (63) but i would feel totally uncomfortable at a meeting about women’s health with a bunch of people i do not know well, especially with older sisters.i can look on tinternet or NHS to find stuff like that out,

i would rather learn about gardening hacks, or how to cook a tunnocks cheese cake.

or maybe a class on art/ pottery or other such stuff.

Of to look for a WI near me to see what goes on there.

DeanElderberry · 31/12/2025 18:52

It's €10 per person per month - but tea and a scone at the pub across the road, possibly the cheapest in Ireland, is €5, (some of us meet up on another day) so we think we do very well. The chairs and tables are set out for us and they clear away.

Attendance irregular but probably averages 25, maybe a bit more.

We had a surplus at the end of the last financial year and all went out to dinner.

tesseractor · 31/12/2025 18:44

DeanElderberry · 31/12/2025 18:37

I can see the value of women's health topics but am glad craft club feels no need to discuss anything between the navel and the knee.

afaik the hall craft club meets in gets a reasonable subsidy from the council for supporting community activities - that's us and the drama group and the card players and the chair yoga mob and zumba-ers and some kind of dance thing and no doubt other stuff. So we pay €10 per month for two hours a week in a warm, clean, well-lit space where we can make hot drinks, which seems very good value for money.

That’s a fantastic rate. We pay £60 for 2 hours, and it’s the cheapest locally (we had to move halls a couple of years ago, and I canvassed everywhere with rooms to hire available locally).

DeanElderberry · 31/12/2025 18:42

Sorry, for clarity, this is in Ireland, where there is some support from community activities. I think it's the government's way of getting us to do the work on the ground.

DeanElderberry · 31/12/2025 18:37

I can see the value of women's health topics but am glad craft club feels no need to discuss anything between the navel and the knee.

afaik the hall craft club meets in gets a reasonable subsidy from the council for supporting community activities - that's us and the drama group and the card players and the chair yoga mob and zumba-ers and some kind of dance thing and no doubt other stuff. So we pay €10 per month for two hours a week in a warm, clean, well-lit space where we can make hot drinks, which seems very good value for money.

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