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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The greatest shibboleth of all...the "trans child".

61 replies

1984Now · 28/12/2025 13:34

More and more my mind is drawn as to how/why transgender ideology has succeeded. And not just partially, totally. Sure, there may be a re-righting of the ship, but I don't see any return to the pre-2012 (the year that Lionel Schriver identifies as when the ship hit the rocks) liberal consensus.
So many things...trans rights is men's rights, rapid onset gender dysphoria, possible march thru the professions/institutions, the feral power of autogynephilia, suicidal empathy, the birth of a new religion and caste structure, cancel culture freezing criticism, the drive to trans humanism. And many more things.
But things really clarified for me over a year ago when Helen Joyce was asked her opinion on this movement's implacable power. And she mentioned both the impossibility of anyone repenting publicly who'd invested themselves into gender ideology re their own children, or in response to children in their extended family, friends, colleagues, and critically admitting to themselves that they'd something so terrible.
At that point, whether you were typically a very brave person who'd normally speak truth to power, or even someone with a generally well rounded pride in being a truthful honest person happy to speak up...so many shut up.
So many...Schriver knew it was BS, but only started to speak up in 2016, four years after she realized how wrong this all was.
JK Rowling took a lot of time.
Linehan? Maybe he spoke up on day one, but he'd have been an absolute exception.
And if Joyce is right, then societies total capitulating is less to do with my list above, and all to do with the concept of the trans child.
For anyone, anonymous or a billionaire writer, to say "sorry, I'm sympathetic to children's plight, but there's no such thing as a trans child, just body dysmorphia", for anyone to say this to one's child, and critically any child they know, and children at large, would have required such bravery and sheer hard headedness, that I can't think of anyone other than Linehan who could have done it.
Before you know it, 5 years have gone by, we're in the Great Awokening, the midst of social media changing everything, then into COVID and the explosion in trans ideology controlling the discourse.
So, umpteen all very convincing reasons why trans ideology has flown, but what got it up in the air was (and still is) the shibboleth of the trans child.
Once society looked the other way on this concept, medicine, academia, social sciences, schools all locked down the trans child as a concept that couldn't be questioned or even discussed quizzically, let alone disbelieved/dismissed, the die was cast.
I do believe this is a big part as to why so many women have been instrumental in the bye that trans ideology has been given, women's inherent empathy has been weaponised by men in the movement for fetishistic readings (AGPs) or political reasons.
Turn the clock back, society en masse chose not to affirm the trans child as inviolable shibboleth, the world would be very different today.
Can things be righted? You can guess what my answer is as I respond to the thread on Streeting's puberty blocker trial...the trans child remains a total neo-religious icon to the modern left.

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 29/12/2025 10:17

Heggettypeg · 28/12/2025 20:18

Perhaps a good analogy might be smoking, which went from being an exotic private habit to being a pestilential nuisance in every public place and shared space. You were seen as selfish, old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy if you complained. But it turned out to be addictive, bad for health and being heavily promoted by people who knew perfectly well that it was toxic but stood to profit if it continued to be popular. Eventually the truth emerged and although it continued, limits were placed on the extent to which it could be inflicted on others, and efforts were made to protect children from it.

Good analogy. And it hasn’t gone away, either.

scalt · 29/12/2025 09:05

Heggettypeg · 28/12/2025 20:18

Perhaps a good analogy might be smoking, which went from being an exotic private habit to being a pestilential nuisance in every public place and shared space. You were seen as selfish, old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy if you complained. But it turned out to be addictive, bad for health and being heavily promoted by people who knew perfectly well that it was toxic but stood to profit if it continued to be popular. Eventually the truth emerged and although it continued, limits were placed on the extent to which it could be inflicted on others, and efforts were made to protect children from it.

EXACTLY THIS!!!! Smoking was a sign of sophistication, long before the term "passive smoking" had been coined. And there was a doctor (in Queen Elizabeth's time, so relatively recently) who tried to point out that smoking was unhealthy, and he was shunned and vilified; in today's parlance, he would have been "cancelled". Remember these lines in Blackadder Goes Forth?
Nurse Mary: A man should smoke. It acts as an expectorant and gives his voice a deep, gravelly, masculine tone.
Blackadder: God, I love nurses. They're so disgustingly clinical.

And yes @OldCrone , from a young age, we're taught to take the word of our teachers and doctors (and politicians, and priests) as the gospel truth. Children in their formative years who hear "you can change sex" and Santa is very, very real have not learned to question authority, yet. It's true that nowadays, it's easier for children to check things independently with the internet than it was in our day, but would it occur to them to do so? And how would they know if the information they get is right or wrong? I'm ashamed to say that I believed everything I read in the newspapers until my mid twenties: I didn't learn to disbelieve the news until much later. Blush

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 29/12/2025 08:42

The YP I know is covered with self harm scars and on the list for a mastectomy.

The parade of falsehoods she believes is hard to swallow- she’s a walking leftist jargon machine. I say this despite being left leaning. She has no understanding of tax, economics or business. Her statements can’t be challenged because they are those core beliefs. I’m not expressing it well- we can’t discuss politics because she doesn’t have any understanding, just ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ level.
Obviously if she doesn’t trans herself, she will suicide before 30yrs old. It’s desperately sad.

I was reading about new research in autism that identifies 4 ‘types’ that have different characteristics and causes, and different ages of diagnosis. I wonder if gender dysphoria will turn out to fit in just one of the categories? That may help clarify things further.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 29/12/2025 08:27

Heggettypeg · 28/12/2025 20:18

Perhaps a good analogy might be smoking, which went from being an exotic private habit to being a pestilential nuisance in every public place and shared space. You were seen as selfish, old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy if you complained. But it turned out to be addictive, bad for health and being heavily promoted by people who knew perfectly well that it was toxic but stood to profit if it continued to be popular. Eventually the truth emerged and although it continued, limits were placed on the extent to which it could be inflicted on others, and efforts were made to protect children from it.

Thank you for a very apt parallel. How times have changed. Sixty years ago when I was a kid our GP always had a fag on the go in an overflowing ashtray on his desk.

RavelsDancer · 29/12/2025 05:24

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/12/2025 03:16

What is "(-II-)"?

It means "repeat", at least in musical notation. Sorry.

pontefractals · 29/12/2025 04:24

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/12/2025 03:16

What is "(-II-)"?

It means "ditto", in this cause to avoid typing suicidal ideation twice.

strangle · 29/12/2025 03:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/12/2025 03:16

RavelsDancer · 29/12/2025 02:49

... Suicidal ideation (but not by kids who grow up to realise they've effectively been sterilised)
... (-II-) (but not by girls who grow up to understand they've been viewed as porn fodder throughout their entire youth)

What is "(-II-)"?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/12/2025 03:12

1984Now · 28/12/2025 19:50

No accounting for stupid people.

I wasn't stupid when I said to my mum "if I cut my hair short, will I be a boy?" Far from it: I was smart enough at five or six to recognise to recognise a two class social hierarchy in which I was a member of the inferior class.

RavelsDancer · 29/12/2025 02:49

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

... Suicidal ideation (but not by kids who grow up to realise they've effectively been sterilised)
... (-II-) (but not by girls who grow up to understand they've been viewed as porn fodder throughout their entire youth)

JellySaurus · 28/12/2025 21:15

1984Now · 28/12/2025 19:50

No accounting for stupid people.

No accounting for distressed kids, then as now.

Whatsinanames · 28/12/2025 20:45

ProfessorRizz · 28/12/2025 13:43

I’ve taught for 20 years. Edit: in secondary schools 😅

First decade: one trans child, had an EHCP (then ‘statement of special needs’), barely coping in mainstream, born girl but insisted on boy. I now wonder if he might have had a genetic disorder which involved an element of DSD (was from another culture, possibly born in a non-Western country). Everyone accepted that this child would live as the opposite sex, probably permanently.

Second decade: countless ‘trans’ children, all autistic, every single one. Trans was an outward manifestation of inner distress and ‘not belonging’, especially present in (but not limited to) autistic teenage girls. Some have gone on to have gender-affirming ‘surgery’.

Entering my third decade of teaching, I’m seeing the dying embers. One or two sixth formers still insisting on opposite sex names (both autistic) but almost no presentation in Y7-11. It feels like a (wrong) solution to a problem we still haven’t worked out how to solve (how to help autistic children with interoceptive distress and bodily change).

Edited

Autistic girls have always been statistically far more likely to suffer eating disorders. Perhaps now as a society we are much better at preventing eating disorders it’s the same distress coming out differently

FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 20:39

OldCrone · 28/12/2025 20:24

It's not altogether surprising that they believe this when it's people like doctors and teachers who are telling them that they can change sex.

And the NHS public website saying the NHS can give you any of the following:

For trans-identified females - penis and scrotum

For trans-identified males - vagina and vulva and clitoris

All of it is a lie

OldCrone · 28/12/2025 20:24

scalt · 28/12/2025 18:07

I heard somebody my age (45) say: "When I was a child or teenager, if somebody had told me that little boys could become little girls, and vice versa, I would totally have believed them", making the point that children or teenagers who have not yet learned critical thinking might believe anything they are told.

Edited

It's not altogether surprising that they believe this when it's people like doctors and teachers who are telling them that they can change sex.

Heggettypeg · 28/12/2025 20:18

Perhaps a good analogy might be smoking, which went from being an exotic private habit to being a pestilential nuisance in every public place and shared space. You were seen as selfish, old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy if you complained. But it turned out to be addictive, bad for health and being heavily promoted by people who knew perfectly well that it was toxic but stood to profit if it continued to be popular. Eventually the truth emerged and although it continued, limits were placed on the extent to which it could be inflicted on others, and efforts were made to protect children from it.

Thingybob · 28/12/2025 20:16

1984Now · 28/12/2025 20:05

In any sane world they wouldn't even have one.

Not all of those 1000 will be 'new' trans kids, many will have contacted Mermaids in previous years.

Their supply is drying up so quickly that I predict we will see Mermaids fold within 6 months.

1984Now · 28/12/2025 20:05

Thingybob · 28/12/2025 19:54

I noticed that Mermaid's annual return appeared on the Charity Commission's website a few days ago and I think even Mermaids must be wondering where all the trans kids have gone.

During 2024/2025 about 1000 unique children and YP contacted their support lines. That is a quarter of the number they had in their heyday (2021/2022).

In any sane world they wouldn't even have one.

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Thingybob · 28/12/2025 19:54

I noticed that Mermaid's annual return appeared on the Charity Commission's website a few days ago and I think even Mermaids must be wondering where all the trans kids have gone.

During 2024/2025 about 1000 unique children and YP contacted their support lines. That is a quarter of the number they had in their heyday (2021/2022).

1984Now · 28/12/2025 19:50

scalt · 28/12/2025 18:07

I heard somebody my age (45) say: "When I was a child or teenager, if somebody had told me that little boys could become little girls, and vice versa, I would totally have believed them", making the point that children or teenagers who have not yet learned critical thinking might believe anything they are told.

Edited

No accounting for stupid people.

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scalt · 28/12/2025 18:07

I heard somebody my age (45) say: "When I was a child or teenager, if somebody had told me that little boys could become little girls, and vice versa, I would totally have believed them", making the point that children or teenagers who have not yet learned critical thinking might believe anything they are told.

1984Now · 28/12/2025 17:58

JellySaurus · 28/12/2025 17:26

Sadly, I’m with Stella on this.

As long as transgenderism is acceptable in adults, there will always be pressure to make it acceptable in children. Makes no difference that for the majority of trans-identifying adults it is a paraphilia, because most people do not understand this. The Be Kind mantras have sort-circuited many people’s capacity for rational thought, and many people cannot imagine such an expression of sexuality, either. They do not see that children and young people identify as trans as an escape from, whereas AGP men identify as Trans as an escape into.

If you're right, we're in an interconnected double-bind.
For me, it's the trans child concept that gives the ideology cover.
The child is both the imperative and the shield for the movement.
But we've also in the West en masse chosen to stop judging, to always show empathy, to value personal choice.
Meaning men IDing as women slip thru the cracks of any societal dismay or objection (as was the case just two decades ago).
If men won't be judged as wrong or even questioned for their cultural appropriation of womanhood, and children are absolutely not to be questioned or shown any doubt over their opinions they're the opposite gender, then institutions and individuals cannot break a self imposed set of chains that didn't even exist when Blair was still in power.

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1984Now · 28/12/2025 17:42

JellySaurus · 28/12/2025 17:26

Sadly, I’m with Stella on this.

As long as transgenderism is acceptable in adults, there will always be pressure to make it acceptable in children. Makes no difference that for the majority of trans-identifying adults it is a paraphilia, because most people do not understand this. The Be Kind mantras have sort-circuited many people’s capacity for rational thought, and many people cannot imagine such an expression of sexuality, either. They do not see that children and young people identify as trans as an escape from, whereas AGP men identify as Trans as an escape into.

Lionel compared trans ideology to Recovered Memory, I'm old enough to just remember that, but I don't recall it being anything more than a cult within therapy.
Other than comparos to other cults and dramatisation in intense family dramas and science fiction like the X-Files, I don't recall it having cultural cut thru across media, institutions etc.
Maybe if it appeared for the first time over the last decade, criticism would have been chilled and it would have taken hold.
But a half century ago, society still had working guard rails, was self regulating, had a much higher threshold for quackery and mind games.
Maybe things started genuinely changing with eating disorders and self-harm. I recall being a particularly unsympathetic young man, and for the first time societal pressure got me to reconsider my opinions.
But even with the most sympathetic therapy on anorexia, billumia and cutting, I don't recall the suffering being held up as something beautiful, the choices to stop eating or use a knife as good choices in any way.
And of course, these phenomena had no bearing on other groups in society.

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 28/12/2025 17:26

Sadly, I’m with Stella on this.

As long as transgenderism is acceptable in adults, there will always be pressure to make it acceptable in children. Makes no difference that for the majority of trans-identifying adults it is a paraphilia, because most people do not understand this. The Be Kind mantras have sort-circuited many people’s capacity for rational thought, and many people cannot imagine such an expression of sexuality, either. They do not see that children and young people identify as trans as an escape from, whereas AGP men identify as Trans as an escape into.

1984Now · 28/12/2025 16:13

The Q now is whether this jump the shark phase lasts as long as the whole phenomenon, even longer, never quite ends. Or burns out quickly.
At the Stella O'Malley/Lionel Schriver discussion at Genspect, Lionel thinks it'll isolate very quickly like Recovered Memory scandal did, Stella contends it's here for the long haul, too many institutions are corrupted, too few still feel brave enough to speak out.
Again, the key is the reverence for the trans child. If fewer kids choose to transition, it may be the kids that kill the phenomenon.
I do know that the Emperor has never been more naked, his New Clothes are locked in the cupboard.
Streeting "reluctantly" putting 1k kids on the PB trial as we've now had several years of a burgeoning truth that the cohort are unhappy, autistic, neurodivergent, from complex families, multi factorial social media and societal factors, more co-morbidities than you can shake an assessment form at.
If he had any principle, any bravery, he would say no, the data is out there.
But there is no rationality on the modern left.
Phillipson with the tacit approval of Starmer and Hermer, kicking the can on the SC ruling advice, looking for the long grass.
Again, the zeitgeist is switching, Labour could grab this window in politics and societal mores and go with rationality, but they won't.
I know women on here, GCs, parents etc, feel absolutely buried by this relentless societal culture.
But I genuinely feel it can't hold.
Kids themselves are questioning the atmosphere around them, the SC ruling cannot be construed as anything different than it obviously is, let alone delayed forever, or even much longer.
If Starmer or Rayner Milliband Burnham after him also won't enact it, then Badenoch or Farage will.
If the PB trial really does go ahead, the stink will so last with Streeting and Labour, they'll never shrug it off.
Maybe once the awful effects of the trial become apparent in the early 2030s, that will be the final nail in the coffin of trans societal culture, that the progressive left knowing full well the risks nevertheless put another 1k at the same risk.
All that will be left at that point is a dwindling band of washed up luvvies like Tennant, AGPs and their bottles of piss, and the sadly deluded, and frankly easily fooled, transmaidens. And (im)plausible deniability from every institution that sucked up to this movement.

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1984Now · 28/12/2025 15:52

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/12/2025 15:47

There's a reason children in schools, in care of the state & every single organisation that works with the young were relentlessly targeted by adult transactivists. Many for the grift but some because of the opportunities offered to them to access children - often without parental knowledge (see Mermaids, Surrey Pride, the NSPCC, drag queen story time and more).

We're not meant to point this out and are usually accused of being "right wing" as Labour peer Cashman alleged - that's how desperate some men are to silence those talking about safeguarding children.

It's that silencing that has allowed this to take hold in schools and made parenting vulnerable children much more difficult

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4954762-pushing-back-against-safeguarding

Bad actors are always gonna act badly (and I don't mean in a Hollywood film).
But it's those who allow it to happen that are the bigger enemy, all out of some misplaced suicidal empathy combined with wifull obfuscation of reality on the ground with young people.

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