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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Violins ready, independent article

60 replies

storminabuttercup · 25/12/2025 18:46

Didn’t spot another thread on this, apologies if I missed it

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-people-women-supreme-court-judgment-b2876522.html?fbclid=IwdGRleAO6Y9xleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEe56qoZcRdbDqi36-PZWkCNiPH16I-3YJWbeNJiuE5wKqklApVXsUq9rCZ108_aem_VJsqSP9QToVms8o846jdFg

as I scrolled I thought it was about non British nationals who are getting some awful hatred at the min, (which is frankly sickening) but it’s just people who have had biology explained to them, poor loves

‘I live in a country that hates me’: What’s next for trans people in the UK?

In April, the UK’s highest court ruled that the legal definition of a woman should be based on biological sex. Nicole Wootton-Cane speaks to five transgender Britons about how they feel the decision has affected their lives, and what comes next

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-people-women-supreme-court-judgment-b2876522.html?fbclid=IwdGRleAO6Y9xleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEe56qoZcRdbDqi36-PZWkCNiPH16I-3YJWbeNJiuE5wKqklApVXsUq9rCZ108_aem_VJsqSP9QToVms8o846jdFg

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HildegardP · 28/12/2025 23:22

nicepotoftea · 28/12/2025 14:57

Agree with all of this, but I think their tactic is to suggest that the possibility of a case means that the SC ruling is in doubt. In this scenario, the fact that it would take years for a case to get to the ECtHR is an advantage.

Dunno, the David Allen Greens of this world have a limit on how long they'll ignore Lies For A Good Cause, Jolyon's warchest being spaffed on scattergun trifles like the cockamamie fantasies of poor, puddled Sparkles, instead of the Noble Fight to the ECtHR, will eventually trickle through to donors. They can no longer rely on the BBC to retail their propaganda unexamined so the legal clowncar may find itself finally having to answer awkward questions where it might once have expected unstinting sympathy & indulgence. Maybe the new Head of News will even see the utility of specialist legal journalists again - getting a LGBTQWTAF desk was a v poor exchange for Joshua Rozenberg. The ground beneath their feet is shifting. Bash Back's policy of "More threats! More violence! More histrionics! More lies! More cowbell!" helps no-one but their opponents. People don't like being lied to & they weary of drama. If nothing else, the drip, drip, drip of fact is getting through to people who once sighed to me, "why can't you just live & let live?".

Lilyfreedom · 28/12/2025 15:38

As a lawyer, I would be interested to see Goodwin re-examined by the ECtHR. It is very much a decision of its time. The essential problem, as it was in FWS, are definitions. If the TRAs cannot come up with a more cogent legal definition of "woman" than we already have, any challenge is dead in the water. If the extremely permissive GRC is insufficient, it is hard to see what else will be.

Tadpolesinponds · 28/12/2025 15:21

nicepotoftea · 28/12/2025 14:54

Marlo, who did not want to share their surname, identifies as transmasculine, a term used to describe someone who was assigned female at birth but identifies with masculinity. They had already experienced being thrown out of both male and female toilets since April.

Fox Fisher, who is non-binary transmasculine – meaning they have masculine traits but do not identify as a man or woman – said they have stopped going to the gym after they experienced transphobia while using the sauna there.

Their problem is with single sex facilities, and so they should be arguing for more mixed sex provision.

I can't quite work out how anyone could think 'single sex facilities for people of both sexes' is a viable option that should be taken seriously.

Marlo may or may not have been telling the truth.

nicepotoftea · 28/12/2025 14:57

HildegardP · 27/12/2025 01:25

It would take a decade to get any case to the ECtHR, & they can't just run to Strasbourg whimpering about FWS, no matter what BS they're pumping out to the fanbase. They must first mount a specific case with a specific complainant, & somehow take it through all the courts, despite the SC ruling meaning they'd get knocked back at the first attempt. The SC ruling is easily within the margin of appreciation accorded to member States when implementing ECtHR rulings & if, by some magic, they ever got to the ECtHR, they would essentially be re-opening Goodwin, their great triumph & a ruling that did not at any point consider the impact on women, LGB people or children. Personally, I'd rather like to see it put back under scrutiny & doubt that the bloviating ninnies of "trans rights" would enjoy that at all.

Edited for dyslexia, some may remain.

Edited

Agree with all of this, but I think their tactic is to suggest that the possibility of a case means that the SC ruling is in doubt. In this scenario, the fact that it would take years for a case to get to the ECtHR is an advantage.

nicepotoftea · 28/12/2025 14:54

Marlo, who did not want to share their surname, identifies as transmasculine, a term used to describe someone who was assigned female at birth but identifies with masculinity. They had already experienced being thrown out of both male and female toilets since April.

Fox Fisher, who is non-binary transmasculine – meaning they have masculine traits but do not identify as a man or woman – said they have stopped going to the gym after they experienced transphobia while using the sauna there.

Their problem is with single sex facilities, and so they should be arguing for more mixed sex provision.

I can't quite work out how anyone could think 'single sex facilities for people of both sexes' is a viable option that should be taken seriously.

tobee · 27/12/2025 02:51

As a life long Labour voter this is a topic that might well mean I can't vote Labour.

But that doesn't mean I'd ever begin to consider voting Reform. Because I'm not insane.

HildegardP · 27/12/2025 01:25

1984Now · 25/12/2025 18:51

If the UK govt is taken to the ECHR and this overrules the SC verdict, expect this to be an absolute wedge issue at the GE.
No way I vote for any party that is happy to let this lie, I'll be voting for either Reform or the Tories, whoever is best placed locally to win.
Leftist GC women voters, quite a few on here, will have some real thinking and soul searching to do.

It would take a decade to get any case to the ECtHR, & they can't just run to Strasbourg whimpering about FWS, no matter what BS they're pumping out to the fanbase. They must first mount a specific case with a specific complainant, & somehow take it through all the courts, despite the SC ruling meaning they'd get knocked back at the first attempt. The SC ruling is easily within the margin of appreciation accorded to member States when implementing ECtHR rulings & if, by some magic, they ever got to the ECtHR, they would essentially be re-opening Goodwin, their great triumph & a ruling that did not at any point consider the impact on women, LGB people or children. Personally, I'd rather like to see it put back under scrutiny & doubt that the bloviating ninnies of "trans rights" would enjoy that at all.

Edited for dyslexia, some may remain.

moto748e · 26/12/2025 22:39

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:55

Missed my point, he wasn’t saying it was wrong either

all I want is a party who can champion women and not be massive bell ends truth be told

Yeah, going to be tricky, that.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 22:05

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:55

Missed my point, he wasn’t saying it was wrong either

all I want is a party who can champion women and not be massive bell ends truth be told

He's a capitalist, so he won't say it's wrong. That would involve criticising capitalism. But there are capitalists who consider it the career versus children dilemma to be a necessary evil and then there are capitalists who consider it very much a feature not a bug and think that women being underemployed homemakers is the natural order of things. I don't know which type he is.

TBH, I'm not sure that less-capitalist models would help all that much. Academia is generally not-for-profit, but the expectation that early career researchers will travel, ideally internationally, to work in different institutions makes not only kids, but marriage and even just serious dating, extremely hard. They call it "the two body problem".

1984Now · 26/12/2025 21:57

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:16

The same Nigel Farage who thinks Andrew Tate is an important voice?
he’s way more dangerous than he’s given credit for

Well, Bonnie Blue has just endorsed Reform as well.
Maybe there's some sort of ying/yang thing going on with the likes of Andrew Tate.

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:55

Missed my point, he wasn’t saying it was wrong either

all I want is a party who can champion women and not be massive bell ends truth be told

OP posts:
selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 21:51

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:41

And this

Men make sacrifices many women don't for top jobs, Farage says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpnl0x3w3o

That was the article I was quoting.

And yes, men do. They sacrifice time with their kids to work. Likewise, women sacrifice career progress to raise their kids. Under capitalism, parents have to make unpleasant choices. He is stating a fact, not endorsing it.

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storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:40

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 21:29

<sigh> www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpnl0x3w3o

Farage said society was trying to "feminise" young men in a way that made the views of self-proclaimed misogynist influencer Andrew Tate more appealing to them.

But Farage stressed: "I'm not a Tate supporter. I'm identifying the truth, that young men feel that they're not allowed to be blokes."

It would be like someone accusing me of misogyny because I use terms like "bangmaid" and "wife appliance" on the Relationships board, failing to include the context that makes it clear that I'm describing how some men see their wives, not how I see them.

Sigh

he’s changed his views on this since the election campaign

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 21:29

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:16

The same Nigel Farage who thinks Andrew Tate is an important voice?
he’s way more dangerous than he’s given credit for

<sigh> www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpnl0x3w3o

Farage said society was trying to "feminise" young men in a way that made the views of self-proclaimed misogynist influencer Andrew Tate more appealing to them.

But Farage stressed: "I'm not a Tate supporter. I'm identifying the truth, that young men feel that they're not allowed to be blokes."

It would be like someone accusing me of misogyny because I use terms like "bangmaid" and "wife appliance" on the Relationships board, failing to include the context that makes it clear that I'm describing how some men see their wives, not how I see them.

storminabuttercup · 26/12/2025 21:16

1984Now · 26/12/2025 10:41

You may very well be right that Farage won't champion women's rights, but you also have no evidence he'll do anything to compromise them either.
Do you really think with the likes of Sarah Pochin and Laila Cunningham on board he's going to be anti-women in any way? And there'll be plenty more of what might be termed "Gen X Soccer Mum" type Reform candidates at the GE who'll be unambiguously GC.
At the very worst, Farage will just be bored by women's rights, but as the most prominent politician of the last couple of decades who absolutely has his finger on the pulse of British politics, he knows exactly which way the wind is blowing on trans ideology etc.
Then again, you have Labour, where Fabian blank slate "feminists" like Harriet Harman and Jacqi Cooper hold sway in the party and a prominent GC female MP.like Rosie Duffield feels they have to quit the Whip, and the rest, Davey Polanski Swinney Corbyn Sultana, TWAW to their very core.

Edited

The same Nigel Farage who thinks Andrew Tate is an important voice?
he’s way more dangerous than he’s given credit for

OP posts:
selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 21:05

1984Now · 26/12/2025 20:21

Just checked. It was a Communist Party Of Britain, according to you, the GC option (not that voting Communist is really a sensible option).
Yet she was very easily IDd as TWAW, whereas the Green was easily GC.
Looks like both veered sharply from their parties official outlook.

https://communistparty.org.uk/publications/britains-road-to-socialism/ mentions subjugation and super-exploitation based on biological sex and criticises how neo-liberalism has infected the fight for gay and trans rights.

And in the January 2025 Unity: Imperialist extraction exacerbates domestic abuse and is critical for harnessing women's reproductive labour to reproduce empire.

And they are associated with Morning Star, who have stood solid on this.

Violins ready, independent article
1984Now · 26/12/2025 20:21

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 20:16

  • The Communist Party of Britain is firm on this.
  • The Communist Party of Great Britain fell some time ago.
  • In case you weren't confused enough, there is also a Revolutionary Communist Party of Great Britain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjNG-4 springs to mind.

Edited

Just checked. It was a Communist Party Of Britain, according to you, the GC option (not that voting Communist is really a sensible option).
Yet she was very easily IDd as TWAW, whereas the Green was easily GC.
Looks like both veered sharply from their parties official outlook.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/12/2025 20:16

1984Now · 26/12/2025 15:13

Interesting. At the GE husting in my area last year, it was the Green candidate who was proudly GC, and the Communist one who was TWAW.

  • The Communist Party of Britain is firm on this.
  • The Communist Party of Great Britain fell some time ago.
  • In case you weren't confused enough, there is also a Revolutionary Communist Party of Great Britain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjNG-4 springs to mind.

Mochudubh · 26/12/2025 18:43

We need to foster a society where it's OK to be "gender non-conforming".

I watched a film yesterday where one of the characters was referred to as he/him and "son", when, despite the cropped hair and baggy clothes, the actor was, to me, clearly female. I Googled and right enough, the actor had "come out" as non-binary in their early 20s, it wasn't explicitly stated they were biologically female but it was pretty obvious to me.

I was a teen in the 80s and knew quite a few "butch" girls at college, some were lesbians, some straight, none of them thought they were blokes and "non-binary" wasn't a thing. In a lot of ways we've gone backwards.

Sad times.

RubyTrees · 26/12/2025 17:58

PeppercornMill · 26/12/2025 16:31

Fox Fisher is a FtM trans activist and has a MtF partner Owl who is also a trans activist and writes articles for the Metro moaning about how "transphobic" the UK is.

The worst article I've seen from Fox was an article about working in a care home for elderly trans individuals. There were MtF in there who had dementia and were asking where their penis had gone and thought they had been part of a scientific experiment, and asking why their bodies had been feminised.

Fox didn't seem to gasp that dementia meant they forgot about being trans, pretty much proving that gender identity is not innate.

@PeppercornMill my first reply to your post was deleted because I had added a link to a MaryCate Delvey video which was a humorous take on what might happen if a trans person got Alzheimer's.

Despite the humour, what that video showed was how horrible it would be for someone to watch a loved one who'd had surgery to change their body when they were younger, and the inevitable mental suffering years later.

RubyTrees · 26/12/2025 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PeppercornMill · 26/12/2025 16:31

RogueFemale · 26/12/2025 14:40

"Fox Fisher, who is non-binary transmasculine – meaning they have masculine traits but do not identify as a man or woman" WTAF. Does this mean a tom-boyish woman who imagines they are somehow 'special'? Actual women also don't 'identify' as either sex, because we don't need to because we're women.

Fox Fisher is a FtM trans activist and has a MtF partner Owl who is also a trans activist and writes articles for the Metro moaning about how "transphobic" the UK is.

The worst article I've seen from Fox was an article about working in a care home for elderly trans individuals. There were MtF in there who had dementia and were asking where their penis had gone and thought they had been part of a scientific experiment, and asking why their bodies had been feminised.

Fox didn't seem to gasp that dementia meant they forgot about being trans, pretty much proving that gender identity is not innate.

1984Now · 26/12/2025 16:26

Pollyanna87 · 26/12/2025 16:24

Would the Tories ever stand up to the ECHR? I doubt it.

Badenoch will campaign on a manifesto promise to leave it. As will Farage.

Pollyanna87 · 26/12/2025 16:24

1984Now · 25/12/2025 18:51

If the UK govt is taken to the ECHR and this overrules the SC verdict, expect this to be an absolute wedge issue at the GE.
No way I vote for any party that is happy to let this lie, I'll be voting for either Reform or the Tories, whoever is best placed locally to win.
Leftist GC women voters, quite a few on here, will have some real thinking and soul searching to do.

Would the Tories ever stand up to the ECHR? I doubt it.