Guardian article on the GRA in Ireland

I agree.
I think what really rankles about the Burke family is the 'special caste' attitude they have about themselves, as if the laws of the land, or even the laws of common decency, don't apply to them - some of them even disrupted an inquest for a 17 year old girl who died during the Covid epidemic, they heckled the coroner and upset the bereaved family. They had to be physically removed.

No matter how unlawful, anti-social or disturbing their behaviour is, having to face the same consequences that the rest of us would is presented by them as persecution and martyrdom. Because they are somehow special....

The Burke family's behaviour reminds me of another 'sacred caste' who think they should be able to get away with anything - extreme TRA activists.

I regard the organisations which purport to represent women’s interests as now being the successors of the orders which ran the Magdalen laundries, mother and baby homes etc. They really support the male viewpoint of women and girls. With all the detrimental consequences for women.

Yesteryear, it was such organisations harshly treating women who were deemed to be ‘bad’ because of their female bodies. Many tragic victims of incest,abuse, rape etc. Men whose actions got women and girls looked down on by society. Those very same men who carried on freely with their lives unscathed. Women were the original ‘bad bank’.

It is worse in a way now. That dad of three who drops the wig, and dons a suit when he goes for job interviews. Womaning costume if you like. Because he says he wants to get the job, and he knows he will have a better chance as the man he is. The NCWI, I think, seem to be gaslighting women and girls as they promote him as a ‘woman’ in their org. As if he has anything to contribute to the interests of women and girls.

P.s. I don’t know if he was the one pretending he was an accountant (which he wasn’t), or whether he was reported to be an accountant (which he wasn’t). Outside of his presenting himself as a woman (which he isn’t either).

I don't even understand this statement. Inclusive in what way? Gender bollocks has only been around for the last decade or so.

And the quote "mainstream Irish feminism has historically been more inclusive" is about "establishment feminism". QUANGOs like the Natonal Women's Council are not representative of mainstream society, even if they purport to be.

Enoch Burke is not "one big voice in the trans debate". He has never been interviewed, as far as I'm aware, and his words are selectively reported, for legal and other reasons. His case is not always (often?) commented on fairly either. There are questions about the school's behaviour, too, that have not been asked.

On population, current CSO estimates are 5.46 million in the Republic, with 4.6 million citizens, .9 million non-citizens. Latest Eurostat estimates are that 22% of the population was born outside the country. Official estimates may or may not be reliable.

Tbh Enoch Burke for me is like Trump. He is the proverbial even a broken clock is right twice a day, and on this particular issue, it is on Enoch time.

But the way he has gone about it, from essentially making it personal about one individual child in one individual school and then pointlessly ignoring court orders so he gets to endlessly hang out with irelands gangland favourites has been so utterly pointless and counter productive. He just looks like a complete fool.

Interesting.

But honestly, what a shit show.

My suspicion about the influence of Enoch Burke is that he is why we are getting the tech to tag criminals at home rather than putting them in gaol.

I think Ireland is a very interesting case study here, as it is politically very open to gender ideology (obviously) but socially much, much less so.

Most Irish people would not be comfortable with the idea of men imposing on women's spaces in this way and I think it's telling that the most visible TiMs are from other countries originally (or are students, which also tracks).

Then there's also the fact that the health service never really got started on it, as referenced upthread.

All in all, I think it's done relatively little damage in Ireland, the situation in Limerick prison being an awful and notable exception.

Burke has been super useful to the TRAs, to frame their argument as 'look who's against us' argument, just exactly as you are doing.

But tbh, it's outlived its usefulness and everyone I know is sick to the back teeth of hearing about Burke and abysmal handling of this issue by all concerned.

Yes they absolutely are. They hear everything.

I actually think there is significant subtle roll back happening in Ireland. Certainly the public awareness has really increased and people are not as on board as they once were. Sport with that Italian guy playing GAA and Barbie had a significant impact,

We were blessed that within the medical community, a teeny tiny community, they had push back from very serious significant voices at specialist level, particularly endocrinology, which given how few of them exist means that treatment is nearly impossible to get.

GPs often won’t touch these issues with a bargepole so you’d have a job transitioning in Ireland although I know they do refer patients onto Europe from time to time.

A politician being so up his own arse not knowing which way the wind is blowing is pure hubris and not at all a reflection of the changes on the ground.

Seems to me that ironically one big voice in the trans debate right now happens to be Enoch Burke and family. Look them up.

EB is in prison indefinitely for breaching a court order not to enter the school from which he was dismissed for insubordinate behavior in public towards his Principal.

EB asserts that he was dismissed for refusing to call a trans student by the chosen gender. But in fact it was his outrageous behaviour that led to his sacking. Of course he is portraying the matter as a GC freedom of speech issue. Which would be a fair assumption, except that is not the case. At least thats my understanding of it and welcome correction if I'm wrong.

The Burke family is notorious. I'll let you look them up youselves.

if this is what GC looks like in Ireland. Gawd help us!

I spend a reasonable amount of time in Ireland mostly traveling between Dublin’s city and the airport and in the past 24mths have had at least a dozen conversations with taxi drivers who are extremely articulate about self ID, including how it was inappropriately hitched to gay marriage and the specific risks to woman and girls in sport.

it’s been fascinating. I generally think taxi drivers are a good barometer of societal thoughts. Ireland is waking up and they don’t like what they’re seeing.

btw, I'd be interested to know if the Irish wording held any clues as to their nefarious intentions.

Very true.

The marriage referendum was specifically about allowing two people to marry each other without distinction as to their sex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fourth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland#See_also

No reference to gender, no hint that gender was an issue. No suggestion that we were going to have gender recognition imposed on us, although the Lydia Foy case (always alarming in that it put lying about a known fact into the law) had made that something that was going to have to be examined.

The GRA was introduced for some reason that was in no way connected to anything we voted on.

If I had known they were going to piggy-back that, I would have voted no, despite my wish for people to be able to marry each other.

Point taken, Deano, but the stupid piece of legislation under discussion, the GRA, is a Republic of Ireland law.

The 2 million people the other side of the Border may benefit from UK court decisions, etc, insofar as they apply to NI, so they may do a bit better than us in terms of legalised genderwoo .

Pedantic observation on population. There are over 7 million of us now, just over five million in the Republic, just under 2 million in Northern Ireland. Still a lower population than before the catastrophe of the 1840s.

Absolutely. It would be funny if it wasn't such a shit show 😵‍💫

As someone said, we've gone from one bunch of men in frocks telling us what we can and can't do, to a different bunch of men in frocks telling us what we can and can't do do😠

I agree about 'The Plain People of Ireland', as Myles na gCopaleen called them, not just not approving of the GRA and self-ID, but not even knowing about them.

When canvassers/candidates in the last General Election called to my door, I brought the issue up with them, with a very faux-chummy 'C'mon, you don't really believe men can become women, do you? So what's with this GRC and self-ID business?'
I was surprised by the number who either agreed that I had a point, or expressed surprise that it was their party's policy!

But it's low down in the list of public priorities, I think - housing and homelessness and emigration are way out in front

It would be great to be able harness all that groundswell of sex realism, from the camogie parents and the likes, and send the message up to the politicians and media.

Unfortunately I don't see the GRA or anything gender-related making it to our High Court, in the foreseeable...

The bottom line is that Ireland has always been a deeply misogynist society and the trans rights movement has been an absolute gift for those who want to play 'progressive' but who ultimately hate women.

Una Mullally, the author of In the Name of Love: The Movement for Marriage Equality in Ireland, argues that mainstream Irish feminism has historically been more inclusive".
“There is a core of solidarity in Irish culture more generally that cuts across those lines of class and gender and doesn’t find itself entrenched in them as much as it does in Britain,” she says.

This is intriguing. Does the second paragraph come straight after the first, as above, in whatever document this quote is taken from? Because I can see that the campaign for gay marriage could cut across lines of sex and class, just like the 20th century campaigns for gay rights did.

But feminism can't really cut across lines of sex, or 'gender', because it's specifically about women's rights. (I'm guessing that Una is using the word 'gender' in its original meaning of sex, ie biological reality, as the campaign was to legalise same-sex marriage.) Male allies are welcome. But men claiming womanhood as their 'gender' are the opposite of feminist, as they actively overturn women's rights when they intrude in women's single-sex spaces or take women's sports prizes.

I'd have to mull that over,ItsCoolForCats... <mmmmm...mull.. mulled wine😛>
but a point that comes to mind immediately is that Ireland is a small place - there are only 5m or so of us [I remember when the population was 2.5m! But it was 8m before the Great Famine, so there's a way to go yet..]
whereas there are nearly 70m in the UK.

The feminist community is therefore small. Not only do we not have the momentum that comes from a bigger 'talent pool' but not being very numerous also means that we tend to slot in with other groups - academic, trade union, human rights groups etc. For instance, a separate lesbian group -not separatist, just separate from the general L&G movement - would find it hard to thrive simply because of numbers.

There used to be a joke that it was time to emigrate when you realised that you had had a relationship with all the lesbians in Dublin😄

The big National Women's Council, which was founded in 1973, has significant reach and influence, but -
'By ‘woman’ we refer to any person who identifies as a woman'
and it has a number of gender ideological groups, like TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland, as affiliates.

There is GC activism in Ireland, but it it an uphill battle, with lots of commitment but not much strength in numbers.

I noted in an interview that Naomi Cunningham said she has Irish grandparents, so she qualifies to play for Ireland - if she ever wants to pull on the green jersey, she'd be welcomed with open arms

edited but then I edited out the edit !