Teen threw out Harry Potter books. Help me form points for discussion please

Your child gets to not read whatever books they want. I'm failing to see the issue here, really.

It’s not just you. The whole thing is utter madness.

Today it was reported that a woman has been suspended from a Council run gym for the tenacity of complaining that there was a man getting changed in the women’s changing room. Five minutes ago everyone would have agreed that this was not right, but today apparently this is an ‘offensive view’. Personally I find it offensive that this has been allowed to happen, but that’s just me.

What makes you think that? All the teens I know are very clear that there are two sexes and its not possible to change sex.

The majority of people have 'gc' views.

This. A great lesson in checking your facts and being able to back up your argument with evidence which helps with critical thinking, debating, ultimately their long-term education.

Although tbh, I'd be way less measured, be furious about the books and ask them if they really think they're so important that all 8 billion on the planet only have value if they agree with their views on any and every issue?

Well they're utterly wrong if they think that. The OP should question them on what they think is so offensive about basic biological facts and upholding women's sex based rights.

What about the right to hold offensive views? Teenagers are likely to think that being gender critical is offensive.

I would ignore it. Her books, she can do what she wants with them. You won’t change her mind- and you may destroy your relationship.

I think I wouldn't focus on JKR at all (whatever you say they'll probably dig their heels in and not listen anyway) I'd probably (age dependent) rather talk about how MVAWG has been declared a epidemic and talk about how to navigate life with respect to it. Talk about how the world hasn't been designed for W&G, talk about Afghanistan and how women's rights there have gone backwards. All these things can help your child understand why certain things are needed for W&G.

Geezo, I hope none of them were the rare editions worth thousands of pounds!

Books your child doesnt want can go to charity.

Kids and teens have a lot of batshit ideas, OP. For the most part, they don't tend to last long.

I wouldnt focus especially on the JKR part, necessarily, but consider what is going on in terms of peers and radicalisation. 13 is a difficult age!

Children are differentiating themselves, testing boundaries. Sometimes they need support and coaching and sometimes listening and sometimes firm instruction. It just depends.

It sounds like she already knows your opinions so we're now in rejecting those opinions territory. You are not going to 'win' this argument because it's more about her aligning herself with her friendship group. I'd fish the Harry Potters out of the bin and give them to a charity shop where they can entertain a new generation. I'd also just drop the whole subject unless she raises it.

Everyone over 25 is old to a teenager.

I'd go for the 'You do not destroy books. You don't have to read them, you don't have to like them anymore, you don't have to agree with them or the writer, but you do not destroy books' approach.

Books are a tangible history of ideas and thoughts. Erasing those thoughts, no matter what they were, means deleting ideas about freedom, self determination, heroism, standing up for what is right - and of understanding the beliefs and motivations of people that do wrong and learning how to stop terrible things happening.

It's not about disliking one author, it's about understanding people. To erase HP books is to erase how the concept of racial purity being wrong was introduced to children, how people can be tricked by the media or with promises of wealth/power/superiority, how heroes aren't just big and strong and loved by all, how sacrifice can redeem somebody, how help can be found in the darkest times and how even being the winner carries a heavy cost.

'To destroy those books means it's also OK to destroy books of people you do agree with, to erase evidence of girls, of children, of people from different countries and places having intelligence, strength or deserving to exist. Which isn't right. You do not have to read them anymore. But you do not ever, ever destroy books'.

I disagree - it is not a topic of opinion.

I can show respect for others without respecting their deeply harmful opinions.

Men are not women.
There are no special ‘safe’ categories of men.
Knowing and stating who is male or female is a foundational principle of protecting the vulnerable.
Women and girls have been sexually assaulted, harassed and hounded due to this ideology.

To succeed in the world our kids need to be able to differentiate opinion from fact and understand when they’re being manipulated.

Do you really think that there are shades of grey here?

What aspect of 'humans can't change sex and women's rights need to be protected' do you think is simply an opinion rather than a fact?

Great post

It sounds like the lesson to be learned here from all involved is to respect the views of others, and respect property, and to consider what effective actions are and aren’t.

You think you’re right. Your child thinks they’re right. It’s a topic of opinion, and a spectrum. Not black or white right or wrong.

To succeed in the world people need to learn to understand and respect the views of others whether or not they agree with them. Be able to engage in healthy discussion on contentious topics, and also know when it’s appropriate to agree to disagree.

Sounds like something you both have some opportunity to develop on.

Ok, I’ve three teens and have apparently parented them entirely differently from previous posters.

Sure there’s a lot of listening, empathy, choosing your battles but equally there’s many times I’m really tough on them. I hold the line. Calmly mind, not shouting or losing it. Just saying ‘no, not happening, end of story’. And I can tolerate them hating me for a bit.

I do not ‘have gender critical beliefs’ I live in reality. My kids thrive when I am confident, direct and honest with them. The clarity is powerful to them.

You don’t say if your child is male or female.
If they are female and believe that men are women if they say they are, then that’s a major safeguarding fail. Where I live there’s many young men/older men who want you to believe they’re women. If I went into town now I’d find them working on the changing rooms at New Look and River Island. I am not protecting my daughter if I lead her to believe there’s a special category of men that are ‘safe’ and she should be unconcerned to undress for them. Just no.
To live independently and safely she needs to be able to risk assess as accurately as possible. And the very first step is to say categorically and automatically ‘that is a man’.

So I hold the line. Coercive control exists. Fetishism is real. Sex matters. Men are never women.

Women have been sexually assaulted in prison by men because of this ridiculous ideology. Young women have stripped and been spray tanned by a double rapist. Women have been hounded and put through hell for the basic right not to undress in front of men.

So no, I won’t pussyfoot around my teenagers. They are free to believe what they want of course but I will lay out facts, show them clearly with examples when they’re being grossly naive and don’t hesitate to point out to them when their privilege is coming across as arrogance.

"How do you legislate for being kind? You have to have unemotive descriptors to make law work fairly and without bias. If we went on 'being kind' who would decide what was kind and what wasn't in a way that didn't involve bias and was universally consistent. The law only works when people feel it has been fair, otherwise the whole system collapses. This is why we have blunt cold and unemotive legal definitions. If we had a panel who decided what was kind and what wasn't kind, you risk this being policised like in the US - this works for you when you agree with the panel about what they think is fair, but if the political climate changes you might be on the opposite. In the UK we try and avoid this by our system being neutral and based on definitions that everyone understands"

"Our uk definitions are interesting. If we didn't recognise sex in law, we couldn't see transpeople in law, if we couldn't see them in law we cant give them legal protections. You can't define transpeople any other way. Gender as a concept is a circular argument that uses sexist but largely indefinable stereotypes which are contested and don't have enough of a universal understanding in our society"

"Therefore JKR recognising sex protects transpeople."

"Trans people are inadvertently campaigning to remove sex are campaigning for their own legal invisibility and removal of rights because they don't understand how the legal system works in the UK. Part of the problem is the US influence and it's failings being imposed on the UK. This actively harms transpeople as much as it harms women"

Heads explode.

I feel for you @ItsPeggyOlson - absolutely ridiculous how they jump on the band wagon - try and explain she is an individual and can explore her own mindset - without being hectored by Chief, self appointed, decision maker of whole Group. I would have chucked first couple of books - only because they so poorly written! However the easy to follow narrative and concepts of rescue, good overcoming 'Evil' followed by the really dark stuff about scratching beneath the surface of supposed benefactor. Most of all, it encouraged children to read. As for the PP who gave her 20 plus years daughter a pass because she hadn't quite matured - I have no words. She'll be coming back to Mum for 'help' until either she or mum drops her (Crocs) Clogs.

I agree with this. Unless your child specifically asks for your opinion, I would avoid saying anything that sounds as though you’re trying to change her mind. It will not work. She needs to have reached the stage where she is open minded and willing to listen. This might take a while. It might never happen. But she is a separate person and, unless she is doing something that will put her in danger in some way, I’d leave well alone.

Listen to the witch trials of JKR in the car when your DD has no means if escapes!!

Not sure how that would improve your relationship though!!

if I remember right, the teacher Warren Smith lost his job because his school/college shit their pants when the video went viral.
Im going to guess some students declared they felt ‘unsafe’ in his class.

He still runs his YouTube channel about critical thinking though.

Just to add, I know you care about both @ItsPeggyOlson in case my post reads more snarkily than I intended

Teenagers are hard!!