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Germany's own 'Pelicot' case

37 replies

Imnobody4 · 20/12/2025 18:37

A pitiful sentence.

A German man has been jailed for repeatedly drugging and raping his wife after a trial that has been likened to the Gisèle Pelicot case in France.
A court in Aachen in the west of Germany sentenced him to eight and a half years in prison, less than the ten-year sentence requested by the state prosecutor.
Investigative journalists from the outlet STRG F discovered a network of Telegram channels in which users exchanged detailed instructions about how to drug and rape women. One of the channels they discovered contained the footage uploaded by P, which prosecutors estimate may have been viewed thousands of times.

www.thetimes.com/article/2df3806a-c1a5-4ace-964a-85b5afcb5bdc?shareToken=b73209fa22d5e0a68bd4d6ca6950efbc

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Treaclewell · 24/12/2025 11:14

I have left out the one W-squared I had edited out of memory, I didn't know him, but my Mum and a group of older women knew his wife. About 30 years ago, can't cite any of the shocking details, apart from him bamboozling many people that he was a lovely bloke. He did have his mates in to rape her, undrugged, which is when she broke free. Thinking back, he was worse than West. Apart from not murdering his victims. How the hell I forgot him I can't imagine. And out of respect for her, now happy, I can't even say where those bloody mates are. Or where they aren't.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 24/12/2025 01:01

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 23:31

Re Demonic Males, it is a highly disturbing book and I would read it with some caution. Ditto The Dark Side of Man. There are reviews arguing both are oversimplified and neglect a lot. I recommended them because they make genuinely useful points but they shouldn't be read as extremely reliable.

Here's a balanced review in a biology journal.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm

I do think it's good that both books are written by men. An awful lot of evopsych books seem like men finding excuses to be misogynist: 'men want to cheat, let's be polygamous', 'men can't help being hypergynous (chasing younger women),' etc These 2 books are essentially arguing similar to the horrible A Natural History of Rape re biological roots of male sexual violence, but they're not recommending women should restrict themselves as the authors of that book did : ( recommended women should consider 'the biological causes of rape when making decisions about dress, appearance, and social activities.')

Show quote history

recommended women should consider 'the biological causes of rape when making decisions about dress, appearance, and social activities.'

In that case, I'd recommend that women consider which sex class commits the raping when decided whether or not to carry male foetuses to term. Why should 51% of the population lock themselves away because the other 49% can't keep each other in line? Get rid of the problematic 49%, problem solved.

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 23:31

Treaclewell · 23/12/2025 15:42

Yup, I've had a disturbing pm reading parts of Demonic Males, and some Reddit thread too, which makes me think the people subscribing to that have that sort of mind. Referencing men raping non-humans, which isn't something which is not known. As the orang and the cook case refers to it being observed it seems very odd. Indonesian women would be wearing not so obstructive clothing, but what the hell were the observers doing? I know a male orang is big, but a research place would surely have access to tranquiliser darts. The only other case cited is of Julia Roberts, and was stopped. Not convinced of that, but it obviously is general among primates, not only great apes, within their species.

In the meantime, I have been running through memory of men I have known of well enough to form an opinion about. Code C casually sexist but trustworthy, D decent, A avoid being alone with, W wrong un.
DCDCCCDDDDCDCDDDCACCADWDDDDDW
W1 colleague, thought ok but found through a police operation to have child porn.
W2 Fred West, worked on my sister's house
Not exhaustive as I left out the OU contingent, staff mostly D, students a mix of D and C, surprisingly few C for the courses I did, but one A who had to be sent home for bothering another woman. But I still think quite a lot of men are OK, though you can't initially tell who, unless their behaviour is apish, like the old man drooling over me changing on the beach at Clacton, or the openly predatory one on the seafront at Dover - didn't care who saw him. He isn't up there, only just remembered him, a definite W.
I've obviously been lucky.

Re Demonic Males, it is a highly disturbing book and I would read it with some caution. Ditto The Dark Side of Man. There are reviews arguing both are oversimplified and neglect a lot. I recommended them because they make genuinely useful points but they shouldn't be read as extremely reliable.

Here's a balanced review in a biology journal.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm

I do think it's good that both books are written by men. An awful lot of evopsych books seem like men finding excuses to be misogynist: 'men want to cheat, let's be polygamous', 'men can't help being hypergynous (chasing younger women),' etc These 2 books are essentially arguing similar to the horrible A Natural History of Rape re biological roots of male sexual violence, but they're not recommending women should restrict themselves as the authors of that book did : ( recommended women should consider 'the biological causes of rape when making decisions about dress, appearance, and social activities.')

PHIL\web page\demonic

https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/http://www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 19:38

Treaclewell · 23/12/2025 15:42

Yup, I've had a disturbing pm reading parts of Demonic Males, and some Reddit thread too, which makes me think the people subscribing to that have that sort of mind. Referencing men raping non-humans, which isn't something which is not known. As the orang and the cook case refers to it being observed it seems very odd. Indonesian women would be wearing not so obstructive clothing, but what the hell were the observers doing? I know a male orang is big, but a research place would surely have access to tranquiliser darts. The only other case cited is of Julia Roberts, and was stopped. Not convinced of that, but it obviously is general among primates, not only great apes, within their species.

In the meantime, I have been running through memory of men I have known of well enough to form an opinion about. Code C casually sexist but trustworthy, D decent, A avoid being alone with, W wrong un.
DCDCCCDDDDCDCDDDCACCADWDDDDDW
W1 colleague, thought ok but found through a police operation to have child porn.
W2 Fred West, worked on my sister's house
Not exhaustive as I left out the OU contingent, staff mostly D, students a mix of D and C, surprisingly few C for the courses I did, but one A who had to be sent home for bothering another woman. But I still think quite a lot of men are OK, though you can't initially tell who, unless their behaviour is apish, like the old man drooling over me changing on the beach at Clacton, or the openly predatory one on the seafront at Dover - didn't care who saw him. He isn't up there, only just remembered him, a definite W.
I've obviously been lucky.

Re the Galdikas sexual assault : I'll need to check details of what bases are like but for now I think Grok's reply is fairly reasonable (though ofc you should always check AI)

'Galdikas was present and immediately intervened: she called for help, physically fought Gundul with all her strength, beat him with her fists, and even tried to ram a fist down his throat to stop him.
Despite her efforts (and Gundul not fighting back aggressively against her), her blows had no effect. Adult male orangutans are extraordinarily powerful — several times stronger than humans. There's no mention in her account (or secondary sources discussing it) of tranquilizer darts being readily available or used — this was a remote jungle research/rehabilitation camp in the 1970s–1980s, not a modern zoo with dart guns on hand for emergencies. Such equipment isn't standard for field primatology sites focused on observation.'

The cook asked Galdikas to stop hitting the orang as she thought otherwise he might've injured them. Similar reaction to many victims of human males...but definitely in a camp you'd think there'd be better safety with multiple people around. This tool place in 70s or 80s, hopefully things are safer now, especially for locals helping..

Treaclewell · 23/12/2025 15:42

Yup, I've had a disturbing pm reading parts of Demonic Males, and some Reddit thread too, which makes me think the people subscribing to that have that sort of mind. Referencing men raping non-humans, which isn't something which is not known. As the orang and the cook case refers to it being observed it seems very odd. Indonesian women would be wearing not so obstructive clothing, but what the hell were the observers doing? I know a male orang is big, but a research place would surely have access to tranquiliser darts. The only other case cited is of Julia Roberts, and was stopped. Not convinced of that, but it obviously is general among primates, not only great apes, within their species.

In the meantime, I have been running through memory of men I have known of well enough to form an opinion about. Code C casually sexist but trustworthy, D decent, A avoid being alone with, W wrong un.
DCDCCCDDDDCDCDDDCACCADWDDDDDW
W1 colleague, thought ok but found through a police operation to have child porn.
W2 Fred West, worked on my sister's house
Not exhaustive as I left out the OU contingent, staff mostly D, students a mix of D and C, surprisingly few C for the courses I did, but one A who had to be sent home for bothering another woman. But I still think quite a lot of men are OK, though you can't initially tell who, unless their behaviour is apish, like the old man drooling over me changing on the beach at Clacton, or the openly predatory one on the seafront at Dover - didn't care who saw him. He isn't up there, only just remembered him, a definite W.
I've obviously been lucky.

ApplebyArrows · 23/12/2025 14:59

"Not all men" isn't a particularly frequent Mumsnet response; it's come up this time in reply to an unusually provocative comment by one poster.

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 14:37

Treaclewell · 23/12/2025 09:05

Thanks, will look into that. I was thinking about the group activity. And it makes that African "it's only human" guy even more wrong. But how on earth did the researchers get raped? Clothes and basic physiology would make it difficult.
1st link didn't work. 2nd only gives abstract.

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Show quote history

Here's an Open Library copy of The Dark Side of Man, by the Jane Goodall protege.

https://archive.org/details/darksideofmantra00ghig

And an Open Library copy of Demonic Males.

https://archive.org/details/demonicmalesapes00wran

If you have a strong stomach, the account of the orangutan sexually assaulting the cook is on page 294 of Birute Galdikas' memoir. She witnessed it herself. As I said, she notes this particular orangutan, 'Gundul', was raised by humans so probably saw them as like other orangutans, but otoh she said locals had earlier told her stories of wild orangutans assaulting women, so probably it's not wholly unknown in ordinary ones. 😢

https://archive.org/details/reflectionsofede00biru/page/294/mode/1up?q=Gundul

Physiology - presumably not impossible? I mean, the accounts pp linked were about marine animals mainly but assault still apparently happened in some cases. And ofc, vice versa, humans, usually male humans, have been known to assault animals...

Demonic males : apes and the origins of human violence : Wrangham, Richard W., 1948- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Includes bibliographical references (p. [301]-330) and index

https://archive.org/details/demonicmalesapes00wran

Treaclewell · 23/12/2025 09:05

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 00:52

Sadly,, that isn't true about apes. Male chimpanzees, orangutans etc certainly do commit rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemonicMales

This book has serious research issues but it's one of many that do have legitimate points about male primate sexual violence at their core.

This is another one, by a protegee of Jane Goodall, along similar lines.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-07074-000

There's even documented cases of female researchers being raped by male primates 🤮

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Show quote history

Thanks, will look into that. I was thinking about the group activity. And it makes that African "it's only human" guy even more wrong. But how on earth did the researchers get raped? Clothes and basic physiology would make it difficult.
1st link didn't work. 2nd only gives abstract.

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 02:22

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/12/2025 01:16

Loggerhead sea turtles will also rape human divers, which can be fatal if the SCUBA gets detached in the process.

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Very disturbing. That article has several examples of men being assaulted- were the animals not realising the sex of the person? Or frustrated, or what? In any case, an unpleasant thing to find out but people should be aware....

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 02:18

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/12/2025 01:16

Loggerhead sea turtles will also rape human divers, which can be fatal if the SCUBA gets detached in the process.

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That's terrible. It seems one documented instant often noted is by Birute Galdikas, the orangutan expert who was present when a male orangutan sexually assaulted the team cook. 😢 She did note that in this case, the male had been raised by humans so probably saw them as he would other orangutans, as well as lacking instinctive fear. Of course this doesn't make this horrible fact of male primate behaviour Amy better....

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/12/2025 01:16

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 00:52

Sadly,, that isn't true about apes. Male chimpanzees, orangutans etc certainly do commit rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemonicMales

This book has serious research issues but it's one of many that do have legitimate points about male primate sexual violence at their core.

This is another one, by a protegee of Jane Goodall, along similar lines.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-07074-000

There's even documented cases of female researchers being raped by male primates 🤮

Edited
Show quote history

Loggerhead sea turtles will also rape human divers, which can be fatal if the SCUBA gets detached in the process.

PerkingFaintly · 23/12/2025 01:02

CreepingCrone · 23/12/2025 00:46

I couldn't believe it when I saw this. Am utterly disgusted with men
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78vgm0e3zzo

I saw this story in Swindon and came here to look for a thread – only to find this one about the man in Germany. Shock

Gisèle formerly Pelicot has lifted the lid on all this through her courage. I fear we're going to hear of an awful lot more cases.

Though I'm glad that, since it's clearly been happening, women are feeling able to report it and the men are being prosecuted.

But oh dear god.

Carla786 · 23/12/2025 00:52

Treaclewell · 21/12/2025 11:22

Some men. And I think Utopia has it right, that they don't see us as people.
I am beginning to suspect that there is a subgroup of males whose lineage doesn't include a complete evolution into Homo Sapiens, since the Sapiens part seems to be missing. They have been slipstreaming their way into society, masking their behaviour behind the normal men, even engaging the normal Sapiens sort into covering for them.
I cite Fred West, whose fellow builders did not see the red flags, so supported him working alone in a house where the husband was away. When challenged that they did so, they claimed they thought his interest in porn was just normal builder stuff only a bit more extreme. And he did good work. His householder in this case picked up something, and where she would have left her young sons alone with trades when she popped to the shop, she would not do so with him.
Until now they have been unable to form groups except by chance, but now can find each other on line.
I remember the leader of an African militia group whose men had been involved in gang rapes claiming "it's only human". Err, no it bloody isn't, except that other primates aren't observed doing that sort of thing. Mallards, yes, but not apes. Unless they were being polite and not doing it when the female scientists were around.
It's only going to be when the actual human males call out this abhorrent behaviour instead of thinking they should support their fellows that it will stop.
But it isn't all men, and it isn't all hate. It's seeing women as things which don't function as expected. The hate is there, but rare. We need to find out whether it's nature or nurture that does it. Heaven help us if it's inborn.

Show quote history

Sadly,, that isn't true about apes. Male chimpanzees, orangutans etc certainly do commit rape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemonicMales

This book has serious research issues but it's one of many that do have legitimate points about male primate sexual violence at their core.

This is another one, by a protegee of Jane Goodall, along similar lines.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-07074-000

There's even documented cases of female researchers being raped by male primates 🤮

Daytimetellyqueen · 23/12/2025 00:44

It’s fucking horrendous!

moto748e · 23/12/2025 00:35

It's just wretched. And whether it's always been going on, or is on the increase, they're equally bad either way.

Lalgarh · 23/12/2025 00:16

And now a case in Wiltshire of a man charged with drugging and raping his former wife, with other men charged

Cheese55 · 22/12/2025 06:00

Daleksatemyshed · 21/12/2025 19:56

Too many men think if a women's prepared to have sex with other men then having sex with a few more isn't such a terrible thing, it may be against their will but if it doesn't bother them with the men they like so it's just more of the same. It's very much the Incel thing, they're so obsessed by their desire for sex that they can't see past it and see women as real people

I think this is true. Good way of putting it.

Daleksatemyshed · 21/12/2025 19:56

Too many men think if a women's prepared to have sex with other men then having sex with a few more isn't such a terrible thing, it may be against their will but if it doesn't bother them with the men they like so it's just more of the same. It's very much the Incel thing, they're so obsessed by their desire for sex that they can't see past it and see women as real people

Cheese55 · 21/12/2025 19:34

I often wonder if men, when they are complaining about women on reddit or such like have a man saying NAWALT within seconds.

Delphin · 21/12/2025 16:27

junipery · 20/12/2025 23:35

It’s very minor but I wish these men were not allowed to cover their faces in court.

This is a general rule in Germany, together with not naming a suspect and only naming prosecuted people by first name. It also protects the person that is prosecuted when he/she is found not guilty in the end. When the person was found guilty and has been sentenced, it is generally allowed to publish photos (if they are available).

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 21/12/2025 14:47

SweetDreamsAreMadeOfFizz · 21/12/2025 11:57

I don't find it helpful to append "not all men" to any discussion about male violence/socialisation/privilege. The discussion is considering men as a sex class, not individuals.

I don't know if it's hatred, fear, resentment, ambivalence or simple entitlement stemming from systemic misogyny. I am horrified by it and yet unsurprised at the same time.

It hit me the other day that NAMALT is how Rule Ten manifests in practice. NAMALT is a PR operation, damage control.

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 21/12/2025 12:04

Thankfully when I was drugged and raped it was before the advent of easy access to video recorders. His friends knew he was a rapist as one of them helped drug me* More men are prepared to accept women being drugged and raped than we can bear to know as it makes the world a more scary place for women and girls than we know

  • Don’t know if his friends knew the man who raped me dressed up in women’s clothes though.
SweetDreamsAreMadeOfFizz · 21/12/2025 11:57

I don't find it helpful to append "not all men" to any discussion about male violence/socialisation/privilege. The discussion is considering men as a sex class, not individuals.

I don't know if it's hatred, fear, resentment, ambivalence or simple entitlement stemming from systemic misogyny. I am horrified by it and yet unsurprised at the same time.