Sex Matters - Hampstead Heath Ponds -

Do you think dangerous men should just be waved on into the women’s pond?

Why do you think it would be dangerous for them, exactly?

And how exactly do they prove it to the satisfaction of the venue?

Yes it's so very dull to hear the same tired things trotted out over and over again

it's illegal to drive on a public road without a licence but we dont demand everyone swipes their driving licence everytime they get into a car. Instead we put a process in place that enables you to get a licence if you pass a test. If the police ask to see your licence then you show it to them. Theoretically People without driving licences could easily drive about until or unless they have an accident or someone asks to see their licence. Society relies on ppl complying with the law even when there's no mechanism to force them to do so.

but yet somehow telling men it's illegal to be in women's spaces and requiring them to comply with the law is at the absolute apex of unsolvable human problems

The starting point is accepting that all males should be prohibited from using single sex provision for females, therefore, males who try to access, or access female only provision are in the wrong.

Following on from thus, providers should consider reasonable and proportionate measures required take to keep males out, and how to respond should males be found using female only provision.

TRAs focus on the issues arising from the ‘measures to take’ elements without acknowledging the founding principles the measures must be designed to uphold.

TRAs do not underestimate the power of providers stating transwomen are not welcome and should not attempt to use the provision. This won’t deter all transwomen, but it will certainly deter some.

If they can't prove it to the satisfaction of the venue, then yes they get turned away.

Same as every single other eligibility condition.

Strewth.

You're not making any kind of killer argument, you know. You just look like you support men trying to access women through deceit.

Certainly I don't think it's fair on the female gate staff to put them in the position of having to be the "sex police" (unfortunate term, there must be a better one - "bio bouncers"?) It would be awful and possibly dangerous for them. Not to mention super humiliating for any swimmers who are shy, androgenous or non-binary, and get challenged in this way.

It boils down to competing visions for the ponds. There are two ways they could comply with the SC judgement.

They could be seen as a pair of single-sex sanctuaries, spaces that are protected, albeit at a high price in terms of intrusive security.

Or they could have an open-door policy of "all who want to swim here are welcome".

Personally I prefer the latter. You don't, fine; most other pond users don't, fine; the Corporation doesn't, fine. So it will honestly never happen. Which means it's pretty pointless you all having a go at me. I'm not going to change my mind (this is MN; no one ever does) and my vision will never come to pass anyway.

Well ideally men Would just obey the law wouldn't they? Not keep forcing themselves into women's spaces.

you seem so very keen to insist that it's all soooo very impossible to do - all to keep happy a few thousand men who don't like to be told no

So paper ID would be acceptable? It's possible to change the gender marker on your driver's licence or passport (you need a GRC for the latter).

What happens when someone like 28 year old me rocks up confidently to a club to go in for a drink and their way is barred because the security staff think I look underage? Should I have been turned away? Or asked to prove I was 18?

(if anyone is interested I went home to get my passport and went back to the club to prove I was 18 and was let in by a sheepish security guard. Obviously I was traumatised for life and accused them of being lookingyoungsrthanyouarephobic and demanded the immediate removal of any requirement to prove you are over 18 to get into a club for people over 18. I mean yes there's laws but it's soooo hard to tell who is and isn't over 18 that we may as well not bother amirite??)

This.

I wouldn't particularly like to be asked to confirm my sex, no. But why are we at that point? It's not because of women is it.

Indeed! If the men larping as women would obey the fucking law then we wouldn't be in this mess but apparently they can't and it's just omg soooooo difficult to make them try that we should give up on having single sex spaces for women

If everyone just used the single-sex pond for their sex then there wouldn’t be any need for anyone to be asked to prove it.
One of the many ways in which a small group of men is fucking things up is by eroding the perfectly sensible social contract.

As if that weren't bad enough, what happens when someone rocks up to the Ladies' pond and confidently says they're a woman, and the staffer on the gate doesn't believe them? Do they simply get turned away? Or will they be asked to prove it - and how?

Yes, it's odd isn't how being asked to prove you are eg over 18 ti get unti a club fir adults is absolutely fine but being asked to prove you're a woman to use women spaces is "horrific"

I used to look very young for my age and was being asked to prove I was over 18 into my late 20s. How was the not horrific? Or traumatising? Or all the other hyperbolic words TRA use. Was it because I knew I was an adult and had every right to be there and they know they actually aren't women and don't?

while still avoiding the rather horrific scenario of swimmers being asked to confirm their biological sex at the gate

Good lord. Being asked to confirm that you're eligible to use a service is only 'horrific' if you're not eligible.

'Horrific scenario'. Honestly 🙄

I suppose it's horrific verifying you're over 15 too. The trauma.

Like pp, not really getting the “horrific scenario” of people being asked what sex they are?

while still avoiding the rather horrific scenario of swimmers being asked to confirm their biological sex at the gate

why is it horrific to ask some to say what their biological sex is?

Good for you. Do you understand how selfish your attitude is? Just because YOU'RE ok with sharing with men, does not make it ok for you to expect other women to do so if they are unhappy about it.

There are number of selfish men who either can't stand the thought of women having anything for themselves, or pervert men who relish the thought of getting their dicks out in front of women who might be in a state of undress.

The only thing that's "changed" is that these men are now emboldened, instead of being rightly told to fuck right off.

They've been emboldened by the "be kind" crew, the luxury beliefs crew who never have to face it themselves, the perverts who've jumped on the bandwagon, and the people who've fallen for the "sex inspection at the gate" bollocks hook line and sinker.

If they want to make all of them mixed sex then they need to change the bloody signage to Pond 1, Pond 2, and Pond 3.

Of course, the men who want women to have nothing for themselves will be fucking delighted. The pervs will be disappointed obviously but they'll still be women to flash at I'm sure.

But some women will self exclude, and they'll fade away quietly, while everyone else is patting themselves on the back. Their world will get smaller and duller, and no one will care. Because a number of men wanted. And because they're men, they got.

It hasn't. Women are still afraid of male violence and traumatised by being vulnerable in the presence of male physiology. Women with fundamental religious views still can't swim in an area where men are present. Women who simply don't want to see vain men in skimpy speedos showing off everything they've got still exist.

All that's changed is a very tiny group of men want to force the world to accept their erroneous view that they are women, or get off on their AGP, and are insisting that they use female only spaces when mixed spaces exist.

Yes but those women don't matter do they?? We must apparently accept that "the world has moved on", men larping as women are far more important to defend than actual women

it being apparently soooo hard for men to stay out of spaces that are not for them and where they don't belong

I'd be sad to lose the women-only aspect - I've enjoyed it in the past. But I recognise that the world has changed.

Until recently the women's pond has been one of the few places that orthodox Jewish, conservative Muslim and other women could mingle, so its really not liberal minded to want to put a stop to that.