Pushing back against the so-called Nordic Model of sex work

Men who pay to use people’s bodies are scumbags though let’s be fair. Their actions only add to the degradation of society and contribute to the disgusting way men speak about and treat women in person and online every day. I’d be happy for all of them to be in prison personally but accept that’s just my opinion. Others are available.

You think we should decriminalise it where?

If you were thinking of England, it is already perfectly legal, as for example the City of London Police explains on its website: https://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sw/sex-worker-safety/#:~:text=If%20you're%20a%20sex%20worker%20you%20have%20the%20right,want%20to%20hear%20from%20you.

@MoistVonL Having listened to numerous survivors of prostitution speak at feminist events, I believe them. They were clear that they felt the Nordic Model was the best way to prevent more women being dragged into the abusive sex trade.
Those who speak out in favour of it are those who are still enmeshed, not those who've found a way out.

Ever heard of selection bias? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

What you have described is like going to the political convention of Party X, hearing that Party X's reforms are wonderful and are all working beautifully, and believing them, without ever hearing the other side of the story.

Nina Vuolajarvi (a woman) is an LSE academic https://www.lse.ac.uk/people/niina-vuolajarvi
who studies the topic.
She thinks the Nordic model doesn't work. She has written extensively on the topic https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/politics/criminalising-the-sex-buyer

the sex trade has not disappeared, and sex workers and people in the sex trade continue to be the main targets of policing, violence and exploitation.”

She talks about how sex work remains de facto criminalised

“ for example, landlords and hotel owners can be accused of pimping. Law enforcement clears activity in hotels or private accommodation through threats of legal action. As a result, sex workers are pushed into ever more precarious environments, and they are subject to a dire lack of housing and safe spaces.

She also presented evidence to the British Parliament

https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/60710/documents/6485

Findings from Sweden and Norway:

• Law endangers sex workers by undermining safety strategies (e.g. client screening, choice of location)
• Police harassment and surveillance common;
• trust in law enforcement diminished
• Stigma worsened; public support for criminalising selling of sex has increased significantly
• Minimal or no access to promised social services; no increased funding for support systems
• No robust evidence that the law reduces trafficking or the prevalence of commercial sex

Consequences:

• More violence and unsafe conditions
• Isolation from services and officials
• Undermining of sex workers’ autonomy and rights
• Harm is disproportionately severe for migrants and vulnerable populations

Tell me, is she "enmeshed" in the sex industry? Or is she simply an academic who has studied the matter, looked at the evidence, and reached a different conclusion? She may be wrong, of course, but then challenge her data and evidence.

I don’t think we should decriminalise it. I think we should bring back good old fashioned shame, decrease demand so sex work is less of an option and improve society for everybody.

@MoistVonL Germany legalised prostitution and violence has only increased.

Source?

Nearly 95% of prostituted women in Germany are forced into it and want to escape
Around 80% are trafficked foreigners.

A significant % of sex workers are foreigners in countries with the Nordic model, too. Can you prove the Nordic model has much of an effect in this regard?

In theory, prostitution was legalised in Germany in the early 2000s. In practice, it had always been de facto tolerated. Ever watched Deutschland 1983, the scene with the American officers in the brothel in West Berlin?

Poland and other Eastern European countries joined the EU in 2000.
So the legalisation happened shortly before millions of citizens from nearby, easily accessible, and poorer countries were granted right of free movement. Of course this must have had an impact on the sex industry.

It seems to me that you are attributing to the legalisation (of something which was de facto common anyway) effects which were really driven by something else. Do you think the influx of women from nearby poorer countries would have been very different if Germany had adopted the Nordic model? Why? Can you elaborate?

Of course the trafficking of women from poorer countries is a tragedy and it must be addressed. The point is not that. The point is where is the evidence that the Nordic model addresses this tragedy.

Again, Northern Ireland has prosecuted more sex workers for working together than men (only 1)!!! If this isn't a failure of the system I don't know what is

@OldCrone I have not had any involvement with the sex industry. I have neither bought nor sold nor exploited sex services nor sex workers in any way. Happy now?

Why do you ask? Because you think my motivation matters?

How about your motivation?

If a woman tells you that she wants to be a sex worker, that she is aware of the risks, but that she still wants to do it because she finds it better than the alternatives, is your reaction that she is entitled to do stuff you disagree with, as long as it is a free, informed choice? Or is your reaction that prostitution must be banned no matter what? I trust you will concur that the difference between accepting another point of view and imposing one's ideology is clear and important.

I trust you will concur that arguments, facts and evidence are useless with those who have already decided they want to impose their view no matter what.

Oh, and bear in mind I have been shouting from the rooftops that I totally get the argument whereby it should still be banned if only a tiny % does it freely, AND IF it can be demonstrated that banning it is effective rather than counterproductive.

Ok, I'll go with "legalising prostitution increases demand, which Germany and the Netherlands statistics show, and "Nordic Model reduces social acceptability of using prostituted women" as shown in the percentage of men using prostituted women in Sweden Vs Germany.

Gisèle Pelicot waived her right to anonymity because she rightly wanted the shame to be on the men who abuse and rape, not on the women who are abused and raped

Having listened to numerous survivors of prostitution speak at feminist events, I believe them. They were clear that they felt the Nordic Model was the best way to prevent more women being dragged into the abusive sex trade.

Those who speak out in favour of it are those who are still enmeshed, not those who've found a way out.

Why do you believe that the Nordic Model reduces demand?

Gisèle Pelicot hasn't made any comment on the subject of prostitution and neither has her daughter. Her daughter has made a comment on the subject of pornography.

One

Question

I

Will

Answer

It

I feel that's clear.

Ah Chris, that noted defender of whatever erodes women's rights to say no to men. What a surprise.

Germany legalised prostitution and violence has only increased. Nearly 95% of prostituted women in Germany are forced into it and want to escape. Around 80% are trafficked foreigners.

Time and again it seems that legalising prostitution actually increased human trafficking. And increases violence against women.

Women who have escaped prostitution are a large part of those groups pushing for the Nordic Model. It doesn't eradicate prostitution but it reduces demand, and as Gisele Pelicot memorably said, "puts the shame where it belongs."

What does 'I have not' refer to? Unfortunately this simple 3-word sentence is ambiguous as a reply to my post.

I said: "You still haven't stated whether you have ever had any involvement in the buying or selling of sex"

Does "I have not" mean that you agree that you have not stated this, or are you saying that you have not ever had any involvement in the buying or selling of sex?

That's not one question. After insulting my reading comprehension. Tsk tsk.

I don't respond to you.

So more excuses to dodge the inconvenient questions. I see. Colour me surprised.
What you think of me doesn't matter.
Whether there is any evidence that the Nordic model works matters.
Why only 1 man was convicted in NI matters.
How many sex workers oppose vs welcome the Nordic model matters.
Why the Nordic model criminalises sex workers sharing a flat matters.

Can you address these points?
Or would you rather find more ways to attack me as an excuse to dodge the questions?

MrsTerryPratchett How about focusing on the debate- if the Nordic Model is indeed in the best interest of sex workers- instead of harassing/personal attacks on other users?

Jolly good. Even though you are rude, you get one question for me. If you could refrain from a patronising wall of text, my poor comprehension skills might cope.

@MrsTerryPratchett I have already answered that question.
Your poor text comprehension skills are not my problem,but anyway, the answer is no.

I have also already explained how I couldn't care less if people here don't believe me, how that answer is irrelevant, and how the answer to that question does not change anything.

Will you keep dodging the inconvenient questions which challenge your preconceptions?

Are you, or have you ever been, a punter?

Dear person who plays the victim card to avoid answering difficult questions,

which question(s) are you alleging I would not have answered?

But if these men are only criminals because prostitution is now illegal, they're still the same men doing exactly the same things aren't they?

Answer us first.

@MrsTerryPratchett Said the person who continues to refuse to answer inconvenient questions!

What would you say to the women raising the very same points I did?

Why is your only answer a deafening silence?

Pot meet kettle.

@MrsTerryPratchett I don't like people, regardless of their gender, sex, or any other characteristic, dodging inconvenient questions with intellectually dishonest excuses.

But I am not surprised you want to play the victim card and misrepresent it as a man telling a woman what to do. When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.