Fears Labour’s Islamophobia definition could silence women’s rights campaigners - Baroness Falkner

Oh sorry, Jehovah’s witnesses. Still not relevant.

I didn't mention Jewish people.

Do you think that all Pakistanis are totally oblivious to the risks of consanguinity?

This was a good documentary some years ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p056gvhm

You know, if you look around the world, you'll find that all cows are animals. But more animals are not cows.

You suddenly started talking about incel teenagers and excommunicating Jewish people on a thread about free speech, forgive me if I’m not following your specific train of thought.

People who know Muslims, have eaten in their homes and hugged their babies don't speak like you do. You can protest all you want, but I simply think you are lying.

You are accusing me of lying because I’ve mentioned harmful practices that some Muslims (NOT ALL MUSLIMS) adhere to. That’s a bit odd.

Is our Home Secretary also lying about having Muslim friends? Is Baroness Falkner lying?

Yes but FGM isnt a Muslim practice.

It is though. Not all Muslims (as I keep repeating) but some. If you had looked at the world map I shared above you would see that many of the countries with the highest number of cases (85-100% prevalence) are almost entirely Muslim. Only Eritrea is 50/50 Muslim/Christian as far as I can see but I haven’t done an exhaustive check - maybe you could do that?)

Why do you think you are better situated to challenge first cousin marriage practices than people from that community who do and can better advise where funding and government assistance might help?

Where have I said that I am the best person to challenge first cousin marriage? I have highlighted that our government are refusing to support a law banning it and trying to reduce the significant harm caused to thousands of babies.

How will you handle women from that community who argue for their right to marry their cousin if they want to?

Why would anyone demand the right to do something that is known to be harmful to health? I would expect people to abide by UK law the same as we abide by the law that says you can’t marry your grandfather or brother. The law is there for a very good reason.

That is not being disputed though.

The issue is that one specific group are working with the government to silence discussion/awareness/and ultimately prosecution on the abuse perpetrated by some members of their group.

We can’t allow another ‘sacred caste’ to be embedded further. Arguably it has already happened - see Muslim grooming gangs (as opposed to white grooming gangs). One group are enabled and still being shielded and allegedly allowed to continue by the authorities and even government, and the other get the full force of the law when caught.

This is partly what I mean by the power of the 6%.

Gaslighting yes, it seems to be pp saying don’t talk about it.

o.O
Is this thread not about a Muslim woman, Falkner, who is concerned about the religious/cultural aspects of the child grooming cases? This is just an attempt at gaslighting: I must not have read what I plainly did just read.

But grooming gangs arent a Muslim practice. Just like sodomy of little boys isnt a Catholic practice.

I think it’s ok to question and criticise even some of the practices of the religion, particularly since it impacts women and girls.

That's not what I am saying but I think you know that. If you believe grooming gangs are representative of Muslims in any way, then my bet is that you do not have a single Muslim friend who considers themselves to be practicing. You might know Muslims. None of them count you as a friend though and you likely don't see them as a friend unless for the purposes of these types of conversations.

Are you saying the pp shouldn’t think of those grooming gangs? Why

Yes but FGM isnt a Muslim practice. The countries where cocaine use is most prevalent are Christian or Catholic. That doesn't mean all Christians are cokeheads or drug smuggling bandits.

Why do you think you are better situated to challenge first cousin marriage practices than people from that community who do and can better advise where funding and government assistance might help? How will you handle women from that community who argue for their right to marry their cousin if they want to?

Haha my Muslim friends will be tickled to know that you are erasing their existence.

The rest of your post is incoherent - can you try again please?

Between 55%-65% of Pakistani marriages are between first cousins. Repeated first cousin marriage causes a high proportion of congenital abnormalities and deaths.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Cousin_Marriage_in_Islamic_Law

As I said upthread, other religions do practise FGM but the countries where it is MOST prevalent are almost all Muslim. Last time I looked those other religions were not trying to make discussion in FGM unlawful.

Same with forced and child marriage. The country that recently reduced the age of consent to 9 is Muslim.

Obviously we know that not all types of Muslims are in support of this but we need a way of differentiating them from those who do. Suppression of conversation in this will not help that.

nationalfgmcentre.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Hard-Copy-Map.pdf

This feels like a blasphemy law by the backdoor, and the biggest threat will be to ex-Muslims and more liberal Muslims.

I had Muslim friends with relatively liberal parents growing up but when new immigrants brought more hardline Islam to their mosque, they were told they weren't allowed to be friends with white girls any more. The parents who held out were shamed and more extreme Muslim kids, mostly nasty jealous boys, used to report back to their families. It was insidious. One of my closest friends never came back from a family holiday to Pakistan when she was 14 - it was arranged by an uncle.

Most men who put themselves forward as Community Leaders by definition are more extreme in their version of Islam because it is the key part of their identity.

We should be very wary of taking guidance on an Islamophobia law from anyone that would use the words infidel or apostate.

Yep and the ‘manufactured’ part. As if women can’t just speak about what concerns them.

Agree with pp on Labour supporters wanting discussion to be squashed.

Depends what, where & by whom. Socially, I don't see that as problematic as opposed to the work place.

In terms of media, wide spread hate speech has been a precursor to many genocides in the past 100 years so guard rails/regulation is a necessary precaution.

That's not to say certain ideas should be verboten rather its whether they are framed in stereotypical dehumanising & demonising rhetoric that makes them dangerous. It's one thing to discuss the problems with immigration & quite another to ascribe entire ethnicities /races/religions as national security threats.

Free speech means we can all voice our opinions but people might challenge them.

You’re kind of proving Baroness Falkner’s point here, so well done.

Reminder that this thread is about freedom of speech and criminal law, not our personal opinions about Muslims or anyone else. Even if you think it’s wrong to focus on Pakistani grooming gangs, people should be able to voice why they disagree, shouldn’t they?

There's significant problems with all types of men exploting girls. In groups and otherwise. There is also significant social issues in white working class families that obstruct proper safeguarding of children. Anyone remember Charlene Downes?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15284129/charlene-downes-case-paedophile-raymond-munro-living-home-police-suspected-abuse.html

If the middle and upper classes of all political persuasion were more interested in equality for their poor than they are division and discrimination against other groups, the world would be so much better.

I’ve known many Muslims socially and as colleagues and currently I’m in a Muslim country. I have no problem with Muslim people, followers of Islam or religious people in general. I’m an agnostic atheist personally. I don’t actively disbelieve in god, I just don’t positively have a religious belief.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a significant problem with gangs of Pakistani men sexually abusing working class white girls. That’s just reality. It doesn’t mean there is no other sexual abuse or that all resources should focus on this abuse. But some should, no? Baroness Falkner (a Muslim woman) knows it and so do I.

Anyone should be able to criticise anyone’s religious practices and customs without it being a criminal offence, however accurate or wrong they are. Freedom of speech and expression.