Fears Labour’s Islamophobia definition could silence women’s rights campaigners - Baroness Falkner

North of England isn’t exhaustive, of course.

I’m discussing the known Pakistani grooming gangs. That well known phenomenon in the north of England which has been responsible for the rape and sexual abuse of thousands of girls and young women. Hope that helps.

Men that groom maybe. What men are you discussing?

You can discuss what you want but you will be challenged by others exercising free speech.

yes, and when we discuss grooming gangs, we mean particular men, no?

Should it be a criminal offence to discuss Muslim grooming gangs, do you think? Do you see any possible issues with that?

I've never mentioned grooming, less by any particular group. Please point me to where I've said anything to that effect?

By your reasoning we can't discuss anything about anything. So much for free speech!

We don't discuss that in a way that speaks of or for all Catholics.

If there are patterns, people need to be able to talk about them. Should we not discuss that many Catholic priests were implicated in child abuse?

You seem to have badly misunderstood the point of this thread. Literally no one is saying you shouldn’t be able to challenge them. That’s how you counter misinformation, not by making talking about it illegal.

Not everyone groomed was groomed by A Muslim grooming gang. Not even most people groomed. The fact that grooming is only of concern to you when it is a grooming gang with a Muslim background is what is telling.

Yet nowhere did pp say it was ONLY a Muslim issue and as we are on a thread talking about making free speech unlawful only in relation to Muslims, I think PPs point is a very good one.

I notice you didn’t answer my question about our Home Secretary and whether she is allowed to call out bad behaviour from Muslims?

Islam isn't a culture. I suggest you learn more about the differences between culture and religion before you engage in these conversations. Islam isn't even an ethnoreligion.

OK - every human is a unique individual. So what is this thing called Muslim, does it actually exist and what does it signify.
Who has the right to call themselves a Muslim?
How can you have a definition of Islamophobia when Islam is a whirling kaleidoscope of ideas, beliefs, ethnicities and practices which can't be articulated.
And yet people are killed, executed, imprisoned every day for Musliming wrong.

I didn't say "Muslims will", I alluded to the fact that some will.

Where have I mentioned that you did?

many if not most don't routinely marry first cousins anyway.

In some areas, particularly among Pakistani Muslims, first cousin marriage is 55%-65%. It’s part of the ‘clan’ system to consolidate money and power.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM.

Nobody has said ALL Muslim countries do it. In fact I have repeatedly, even in capital letters said ‘Not All Muslims’ so have no idea why you keep repeating this irrelevant point.

It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.

So what about the British girls, Muslim and otherwise who suffer this barbaric practice? Are we allowed to deal with them? Which ‘cultures’ are you referring to? Is Islam one of them? Do you think that if we are trying to persuade specific groups not to mutilate their young girls, it would be helpful to understand who they are so we can talk to them direct? Or do you think we should just put out a generalised advert to raise awareness?

The ‘front line’ people in various ‘cultures’ aren’t doing such a good job in stopping it at the minute don’t you think?

Yes, and to understand why those people were subject to that, we need to know much more about them? That's also only reacting to a harm that has already been done, rather than trying to prevent it occurring in the first place.

Well if you want to talk about the issue that unites those people, it would be FGM or grooming. Not uses colgate, has brown hair, or was born in England.

They will belong to many groups. It's unhelpful to only consider them as one, homogenous group.

This discussion reminds me of the so-called "benefit bashing" threads. No one can discuss what may be a legitimate and rational concern because people get hung up on their own personal experience and see any sort of criticism of the welfare system as a personal attack on them.

Again youve slipped into speaking about it as a Muslim issue and so I have to assume you can't comprehend the written word very well.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM. It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.
And what happens when those Muslims leave their country and take their practices with them. In a secular democracy it is not down to people from that culture to tackle it alone it is also the responsibility of the state, hence FGM is illegal in this country.
To deal effectively with this there needs to be an acknowledgement that cultural practices and beliefs relate to particular groups within Islam and that we need to speak clearly and honestly about them in order to deal with them.
An Islamophobia definition will allow any challenge to cultural practices and beliefs cover. Is that what the moderate Muslims want? Many of them are firmly against this definition. It certainly gives them no protection in speaking out.

I didn't say "Muslims will", I alluded to the fact that some will. Muslims arent a hive mind and many if not most don't routinely marry first cousins anyway.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM. It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.

Everyone who has had FGM is part of a group.

Everyone who has been groomed is part of a group.

You can certainly talk about these social issues without extrapolating to wider assumptions about other groups they might belong to.

Do you think that all Pakistanis are totally oblivious to the risks of consanguinity?

I didn’t say that they were oblivious to the risks. Many Muslim leaders are trying to reduce the rates but our government has declined to give them the backing of the law which would speed things up considerably as they are making painfully slow progress which just means that more kids are being harmed. It was you that suggested Muslims would argue for the right to continue the practice regardless of the harms.

You know, if you look around the world, you'll find that all cows are animals. But more animals are not cows.

eh? You’ve called me and my Muslim friends liars and now this?? What have animals and cows got to do with this thread?

If we're not allowed to discuss something because it doesn't apply to every single person who may fall, or appear to fall, within a specific group, we'd never discuss anything!

Not all men sexually assault or abuse women, but we can still discuss that. Not all Catholic priests abuse children, but we need to be able to discuss that issue. Not all disabled people can work, so why spend time discussing adaptations for those who can let it upset someone who can't. The list is endless.

Totally relevant. Ex communication happens in many communities in many different ways